Ramon Ray / Founder, ZoneofGenius.com. Speaker. Author. Host

Most entrepreneurs think hustle is the answer. Ramon Ray has a different take.

The man who started 5 companies, sold 3, hosted over 200 episodes of a USA Today Network show, and interviewed all 5 Shark Tank sharks and President Obama says the real game is relationships, resilience, and rewriting the soundtrack in your head.

In this conversation, Ramon and Paul go deep on what it actually takes to build a business that lasts, how failure works as a clarity tool, why desperation is the fastest way to kill a deal, and what the alter ego effect can do for entrepreneurs who feel stuck.

This is not a highlight reel. This is the real middle of the journey.

BIO: 

Ramon Ray is a five-time entrepreneur who has started and sold three companies, and he shows no signs of slowing down. He is the publisher of ZoneofGenius.com and the author of five books, including "The Celebrity CEO," which lays out how entrepreneurs can build and leverage their personal brands for lasting growth. Ramon has served as an expert witness to the United States Congress and was invited by the Office of the President to speak at the White House, where he also conducted the historic first presidential live Google Hangout interview with President Obama. As a global keynote speaker and event host, he has shared the stage with Deepak Chopra, Simon Sinek, Seth Godin, and Gary Vaynerchuk, and has interviewed all five original Shark Tank investors. Known for his infectious energy and deeply human approach to business, Ramon's mission is to help entrepreneurs build not just successful businesses but joyful lives. His brand ambassador work with companies including Bitdefender and his twice-weekly email newsletter through Zone of Genius reach thousands of small business owners around the world. Ramon's newest resource is dailymojo.com, a free daily inspiration app he built to keep entrepreneurs encouraged and moving forward.

LINK:

DailyMojo.com

ZoneofGenius.com

Paul Povolni (Voppa) is the founder of Voppa Creative and a creative leader with over 30 years of experience in brand strategy and design. Based in Jackson, Mississippi, he has worked with clients internationally, leading teams in award-winning branding while serving as a coach and speaker. Paul delivers workshops and keynotes on brand strategy, creative thinking, and organizational culture, and hosts The Headsmack Podcast: Conversations with Misfits. His work centers on helping organizations lead with Clarity, Creativity, and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Voppa Creative Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (02:54.687)
Hey, welcome to the Head Smacked podcast. My name is Paul Pavolny and I am excited to have another misfit with me. have Ramon Ray and Ramon Ray is unapologetically, unapologetically, that's a mouthful, unapologetically positive and passionate about making the world a better place. He started five companies, sold three of them and is an in-demand expert in small business success.

Ramon is a publisher of zone of genius.com author of the celebrity CEO and a popular keynote speaker who has shared the stage with Simon Sinek, Seth Godin and Gary Vaynerchuk. He's produced over 200 episodes of the USA Today network show, the run down with Ramon interviewed all five original shark tank sharks and sat down with president Obama. How you doing Ramon?

Ramon Ray (03:46.572)
You know, Paul, I am blessed. am well glad to talk with you and more importantly, your audience. You anytime I get a chance to share with others and I can give insider advice and learn from you, I hope you share with me too. It's a good day. So I'm glad to be here happy and feeling good.

Paul Povolni (03:56.503)
Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Povolni (04:02.581)
Yeah, I'm glad you're on. I've been looking forward to this conversation. We got to meet a couple of weeks ago in seriously Arkansas. And so it was great meeting you seeing you at

at work seeing you do your thing and it was an amazing conference and it was great to meet you there. And so usually the way I like to start the podcast is just to hear a little bit more about you. I hear about your origin story. I like hearing origin stories. I like superheroes they can see behind me. And so origin stories are always great to hear. And so tell me a little bit about Ramon Ray. You can go as far back as you feel would be necessary. But let's hear your origin story for a little bit.

Ramon Ray (04:19.287)
Thank you.

Ramon Ray (04:42.887)
Sure. The origin story. I think I'll just touch on who I am today. I mean, I may work with brands and help them reach small businesses. Some people may call that a influencer marketing. So working with Bitdefender and VeriSign brands like that who say, Ramon, help us reach small businesses more. Be the face of our brand, be the voice of our brand. So I do that. And also at a motivational keynote speakers, you got to see me do it. Seriously, Arkansas, never heard of the place in my life. I knew Arkansas until you and I were together.

Paul Povolni (05:08.821)
Hahaha.

Ramon Ray (05:12.365)
That's what I do today and a mishmash of other things to serve the world and make a better impact on the world. The origin story is really short. mean, going as long as you want, but I think what makes me be who I am today is I had a stint in working at the United Nations for over 10 years. I got that job right at a high school, kind of before college. It took a gap year before I went to college. And while there was early 90s, so some may remember the audiences over the age of 40 or something like that.

CompuServe and AOL and Prodigy and fax machines being popular in offices and know, modems and do, do, do, do, dial-ups and ISD on lines. That was my era of when I was and being in that small office I was in in the United Nations, they didn't have a lot of technology. So it was a great time with me to get in there and build the office over 10 years, just connecting computers, getting us on the internet, having our first website, all those things I got to touch. And so that was my first

Paul Povolni (05:44.479)
Right, right, yeah.

Paul Povolni (05:52.211)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (06:11.252)
Wow.

Ramon Ray (06:12.181)
sphere, yeah, into being kind of a one one side of me earlier in my entrepreneur life as kind of being a technologist starting domain names and things. So that's one United Nations. Number two, the other half of the United Nations experience was really the art of marketing we had, you know, I worked for an office in the UN called United Nations University and agency in the UN. And we had events and books and all kinds of things we did. So part of my role was working with the director of the office and marketing it.

So I think that's where I got an early start today. It's a lot different, but it's a lot similar too. But learning just the art of how do you fill a room, even a free event, how do you fill a room with people? So that was really my early start of marketing, early start of dabbling in technology. And then really people say, well, how did you start speaking and being who you are today? That was serendipitous, accidental. was no, some people tear up and, I wanted to change the world. I wasn't looking to change the world. I was just.

Paul Povolni (06:45.088)
Right, right.

Ramon Ray (07:07.321)
You speak on a platform and somebody like you or somebody says, hey, you did this so well, can we pay you to do it? And so that really launched me into speaking over a 15, 20 year journey. Same with being a blogger, writer, I don't call myself a journalist, but in the space of content monetization in some broad way. You post content on this platform, that platform, an ink magazine, Black Enterprise at the time said, Ramon, two different publications, can we pay you to write for us?

Paul Povolni (07:18.184)
Right, right.

Ramon Ray (07:36.226)
there goes the journey of this aspect of somehow writing and making money from it. So that all bundles up to Ramon Ray today being a speaker, a host, brand influencer, and dabbling into creating publications and even apps, things of that nature is who I am today. But I'll focus really on entrepreneurship, small business, and hopefully making the world a better place.

Paul Povolni (07:38.827)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (08:00.383)
Wow, that's an awesome journey. Now with the writing, had you done writing, a lot of writing before, was that something that you really had leaned into before? Was that something new to you?

Ramon Ray (08:09.805)
not really a newish. mean, even today, I don't consider myself a writer or a journalist or a blogger, even though I've written thousands of articles. So, and I want to give honor and credit to real writers, journalists, long form copy. No, but I think what these magazines at the time saw was I knew small business. I knew the story of entrepreneurship. And I guess it was through blogging, short form and, you know, small websites I started. So I was a big fish in a small pond. So that was what they were leading into. Hey Ramon.

Paul Povolni (08:16.511)
Yeah

Paul Povolni (08:28.352)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (08:39.909)
There's a cool product that can do internet via satellites way before Starlink. know, Hughes Direct TV, Hughes satellite company, right? They still have a service that does it, probably competes with Starlink. for example, doing a review on that, they sent it to my home, I set up the satellite, reviewed it. How did I like it? How didn't I like it? What was the cost of writing about that? And they had an editor to work with me. So more writing of just, hey Ramon, can you go to this event and interview somebody and...

Paul Povolni (08:44.567)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ramon Ray (09:07.725)
put together a 2000 word article about them. So from that aspect, but not like a professional writer.

Paul Povolni (09:10.583)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (09:15.669)
Yeah, so now out of out of, you you worked worked in that job that you mentioned, you kind of got to learn the internet and learn the different things of businesses and that kind of led to one thing to another. When when did you start your first company and what company was that?

Ramon Ray (09:30.454)
Yeah, I started five and so they were one was family computer consulting services and it would have been around that time early nineties. I think I had the business card. was saving it to show you because I found in my drawer. Really? is. It's Paul's amazing when you want to find something you never find it, but I put it on a shelf somewhere. It'll come back somewhere. It's in one of my, but I wanted to show you because it's called family computer consulting services. I went to like the local, the local, here it is. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (09:39.223)
you

Paul Povolni (09:50.689)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (09:59.649)
you

Ramon Ray (10:01.037)
Family Computer Consulting Services. went to and you can see again, it's kind of dorky, just a little icon with the computer there. But I went to your local, I forgot what it's called, like a local Kinko's back in the day, a regular print shop, you could see them printing this, it's embossed. So early 90s. So Family Computer Consulting Services. Then I started a blog, smallbiztechnology.com. I bought the domain in 1999. And that's one of the companies I sold. Started an event business.

Paul Povolni (10:03.266)
nice. All right.

Paul Povolni (10:10.293)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (10:14.336)
Right.

You

Paul Povolni (10:27.701)
Wow, wow.

Ramon Ray (10:30.957)
a small business summit that was in 2005 was the vision for it and then did smart hustle.com. I think it would be 2015 I wanna say and then today I run zoneofgenius.com and I think that's five. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (10:48.629)
Yeah. So with some of those businesses, you know, they're, they're kind of different and some are, some are similar, but some are, some are very different. What are some of the lessons that you learned in starting those? You know, you, you went from working for an organization to suddenly being an entrepreneur and starting your own business. What are some of the lessons that you learned early on that kind of formed who you became as an entrepreneur, as a influencer, as a leader?

Ramon Ray (11:15.457)
Yeah, and I think, know, Paul, in full disclosure, I'm still learning that lesson now. I am not the proverbial Elon Musk, Mark Cuban. These are men and women who've built billion dollar brands and all this. The companies I've started, so people get context. These are generating a few hundred thousand dollars in sales. And I'm saying that because I think context is important and I'm proud of it. I'm not the guy who did the venture funded 50 million dollar exit. No, but.

as hopefully can give hope to somebody here, if you're starting a business that generates 400,000 a year, you're doing a business that is 800,000 a year, it's highly profitable, you have a team of two or three people, and you're working out of a home office, God bless America, that'll never be on the cover of Forbes ever. But think about that, how many people can say I've started a $600,000 business, and I pay myself and feed my family and give back. So to answer your question, I think the lessons I've learned, and I'm still learning it because

Paul Povolni (11:51.965)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Ramon Ray (12:06.237)
Many of the first ones I've done were just accidental. They were just to feed my family. It was more hobby, you know, and I didn't have a plan. But I think the biggest lessons learned is that, and this is really about life, Paul one build relationships. as you see me host at scale with stability with our friends, JC height and his wife, Karen and the team that was somebody referring me to JC. one embrace and build relationships, whether you're scaling to a multimillion dollar company or it's small.

Paul Povolni (12:12.585)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (12:21.207)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (12:35.945)
Embrace relationships. think point three, it's important Paul to understand that to embrace failure. And I know we hear this a lot. And I'm not just saying that to be cool. But man, I'm seeing it more and more failure to the limit of your risk, not stupid failure, but to what you can handle. Because that's the only journey that you'll get better and better. So embrace failure. Those are two things I think I could go so much but two two important lessons for me.

Paul Povolni (12:53.399)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (13:02.667)
Yeah, well, and the reason I like to ask that too is, you know, there are business people that might be listening to this and they might be just starting up. There are business people that maybe have just hit six figures and there's probably people that have hit the millions. so I want them and that's one of the reasons that I like to talk about origin stories and kind of hear about those lessons, even if, you know,

Ramon Ray (13:10.317)
and

Ramon Ray (13:16.397)
That's right. They can hire me.

Paul Povolni (13:26.825)
It wasn't the multi-million dollar exit or whatever is there's always lessons along the way because somebody is at a different point in their journey. They're either they're starting up, they're in that, you they just hit six figures, they hit multiple six figures.

And there's lessons I think that you learn all the way along from day one starting up just you in your bedroom, you know, at a kitchen table, you know, whatever it is, you learn lessons there, then you know, the growth happens and, you know, new levels, new devils, right? And so you start learning, you know, new lessons and you start having new experiences. so, you know, hearing about some of what you've shared, I think is very helpful because, you know, while you might not say, well, I didn't have a

Ramon Ray (13:59.534)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (14:10.456)
multi-million dollar exit in those businesses. But still, you there were some lessons that you learned that kind of prepared you for the next phase of what you were doing, right?

Ramon Ray (14:21.485)
And just to underline that the key I was getting is also not that it's smaller or less than, but just to encourage people. Again, we think of the billion dollar Netflix or Tesla. No, if your business is a $2 million business, which is small compared to so many, but you're highly profitable, you're paying yourself good, that's life. You're paying yourself, you're giving back to your community, you're making an impact in the world, you'll die a very happy man or happy woman.

Paul Povolni (14:38.306)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (14:47.808)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think even Gary, you you share the stage with Gary Vaynerchuk, and I think he even shared one time that, you know, people always think that success is that that multi million, multi billion, that huge influencer, that huge, all over the internet, all over whatever. And he said, he's got friends that they're just happy with. Like you'd said, if they're paying their bills, they're taking care of family life is good. They've got the options that they want to have the options to. And they're quite satisfied.

Ramon Ray (14:52.621)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (15:01.709)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (15:17.742)
And I think sometimes we miss that, that you don't, the goal doesn't necessarily always have to be, you know, multi-million, whatever. That's a great goal. That's a worthy goal, but don't feel that you've failed simply because you haven't reached that, right?

Ramon Ray (15:19.181)
That's right.

Ramon Ray (15:35.022)
That's right. That's right. And the key for that Paul, I think is as long as you're building a sustainable business, that's what I say. On the other hand, we don't want people, and again, if you're in that stage, it's okay, but as a, hey, I'm making, and again, I'm talking about Northeast in the USA money. I'm making $30,000 a year my business. That's poverty line, I think ish. You can't pay yourself. You can't give back to your family, give to your community, you know, and that's because you hear me say give a lot. think those two things are a good description of not wealth per se, Paul, but for me,

Paul Povolni (15:40.79)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (16:04.781)
where one's at. Are you paying yourself a competitive, healthy salary? Whatever that may mean in your region of the world, does that take care of your needs? Are you able to give back to your community some way monetarily and then live the life you want? Meaning take a vacation maybe once or twice a year, things like that. If you're doing that, all the other stuff, that's extra gravy. that's so don't also be able to think that, oh, Ramon and Paul are saying, you know, I sold two crochet blankets this year for $5. No.

Paul Povolni (16:32.568)
you

Ramon Ray (16:35.017)
Not saying that, you need to do more because that's not sustainable.

Paul Povolni (16:37.652)
Right, right, right, absolutely. Now you had mentioned, you know, two of the lessons that you learned, and I'm sure you've got dozens more, but you mentioned relationships and failure with the relationships. Talk about that for a little bit. You know, you've like we've read in the bio, you know, you've shared the stage with a lot of people, I'm sure that came through relationships and just experience and, and

reputation and things like that. So talk a little bit about more about relationships. How else have they impacted you and your success?

Ramon Ray (17:08.865)
Yeah, one of my friend, Adrienne Miller, she had a community, she still has a community called Adrienne's Network and now she does amazing copywriting for entrepreneurs. And Adrienne Miller said, it's not necessarily who you know who can buy from you, but it's who you know who knows who can buy from you because we do need to make money. But sometimes we focus so much on, wanna get money from Paul the sale. But no, it's more so Paul sees value in having me on his podcast, I'm sharing with this community. I want nothing from Paul, Paul wants nothing from me.

Paul Povolni (17:28.736)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (17:38.573)
I see value in something that as I get to know Paul better what he can do and I can add value to him. That's the two of us connected together. Now, how do we make that important? Paul keeps in mind, hey Ramon, I got a buddy who needs what you can do. I keep Paul in mind and say, Paul, I got a buddy who needs it. You can do that. And it may not even get to that, but it starts by just two people who vibe, who align in some way as we were at this SWS event together, who align amongst some dimensions who can say, I like this guy.

I like this girl, I wanna grow with them, I wanna add value to the world, that's the value of relationships. So I think tactfully of, you mentioned Gary Vaynerchuk, Seth Godin, others I've been with, and that's just one example in the speaking world, but a lot of it comes from referrals. It comes from A, just showing up over and over and over and adding value, being nice, being kind, stuff our mommas taught us, our daddies taught us, and then two, adding value.

Paul Povolni (18:22.145)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (18:30.231)
Right.

Ramon Ray (18:32.309)
and then being remembered. And when the time comes where you've collected enough of these seeds of relationships, seeds of growth, seeds of good value, now that this has happened, now the growth comes by others starting to pour into you. The water starts to come down and the seed grows and you get poured into and you're pouring into others as well. That's the beautiful circle.

Paul Povolni (18:52.192)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think what happens a lot of times, and I know it happened for me early on as an entrepreneur, is, you know, if you're desperate, if you're just starting, if you're not making the money, you start looking at every relationship as, what can I get from them?

you know, can I sell to them and you you stop having healthy relationships that it's just like, I just want to get to know you as a person. You know, I want you to know me and then maybe sometime in the future, either we'll work together or as you said, you might know somebody that could use my help, but I've come from the point of a healthy relationship as opposed to what can I, what can I get out this person? What can I

Ramon Ray (19:18.829)
Mmm.

Ramon Ray (19:23.661)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (19:33.174)
How can I, how can I sell to them? You know, and that becomes an unhealthy way to, I think, to live. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs probably suffer from that. Have you seen that or do you think that?

Ramon Ray (19:43.901)
all day long, can smell it, Paul. Those who are too thirsty, too desperate, and I get it, Paul. I've been in positions, I'm in seasons maybe now where cash flow's not right. I need to make money. So again, I hope people understand as me and Paul are talking here, we want you to make money, yes. But it's the desperation, I think Paul are saying. Be careful of that. Hold your head high and have a little respect. Not that you shouldn't sell. My son's one of the best sales coaches in the world. Sell, sell, sell, make the offer, but.

Paul Povolni (19:47.01)
You

Paul Povolni (19:55.308)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (20:02.082)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (20:06.315)
Right.

Ramon Ray (20:10.804)
It's not looking like you using you and I Paul's an example. What can I get? How can I get a book? No, take calm down, puppy chill. Just be nice to Paul. See how Paul's doing. Add value, get to know him. Let me see what he needs. And we take it. And if you collect enough of those good relationships, Paul, that's then how money can begin to flow. But it may not be from Paul to Ramon. It may not be from Ramon to Paul. It may be them joining together doing something that they can do better together than they can alone.

Paul Povolni (20:17.91)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (20:40.202)
That's where things get very interesting.

Paul Povolni (20:42.634)
Wow, that's so good. And you're right, people do smell that and they start avoiding you. You you start being that person that, man, they're always trying to sell me. They're always trying to pitch me. I think there's a healthy version of that. I think there's a healthy version where you're out of that scarcity mindset. You're out of that scarcity desperation and you're in a place of confidence and trust that.

Ramon Ray (20:47.66)
Yes. Yes.

Paul Povolni (21:07.128)
you know, you're going to be able to generate relationships that are going to help in some way, you know, in the future, maybe generate things that you didn't even see coming. And so, you know, talk about failure for a bit. I think that's another thing that, you know, people wrestle with, you know, with having five businesses. I'm sure there are times when you felt like you failed and maybe you failed. I know I have. And so talk about those lessons that you learned and what were those like?

Ramon Ray (21:15.788)
Mm.

Ramon Ray (21:32.939)
Yeah, and I'm going through this now, Paul. I go through this, you know, maybe daily feeling, this didn't work out. But here's the thing about failure. think, and I learned this from Seth Godin, and it's not new, but Seth Godin highlighted this to me, is that be careful what you're measuring. A small mouse measuring himself or herself against, you know, a bear, and they're lifting the same thing. That's not a fair comparison. You're a mouse. That's how God made you. God made you to be, do mouse level stuff. A bear can do bear,

Paul Povolni (21:39.448)
You

Paul Povolni (21:58.22)
Wow, yeah.

Paul Povolni (22:02.71)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (22:02.718)
level stuff and both can be survived and do happy. So failure, think a few things. One, what is it that you're trying to accomplish? That's really important. What's what you're trying to accomplish? Number two, what indeed is the measure of success that you're measuring yourself to? Is it to get 10 million dollars of revenue or is it to have a sustainable business that impacts 10 million lives? What's the measure you're measuring yourself against? Number three, I think

Paul Povolni (22:26.764)
Yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (22:29.932)
Whether you call it failure or lesson learned because I think lesson learned is important Are you able to learn from that failure as it were let's call it failure get back up again use that as a powerful education source So the next journey is there because I think sometimes people forget Paul and you won't really it's hard to see this while you're in it You may not even know it, but maybe that journey you're on Jason Pfeiffer of entrepreneur magazine. He said this in a recent blog post Let's get used to being in the middle

or as I often coin it, messy middle. Maybe that's the position of life that you're so looking to get ahead, get ahead, get ahead. Life is not like baking a cake, it's baked and done. That's not life Paul, as you may know, you're human. There's a part of life where you're dead, you're gonna die, but until you do there, maybe you embrace it that you know what, this happened to me, let me keep rolling, let me get back up again. Or as a saying, I heard it from Danel Delgado, heard it from Glenn Lundy, they said these things, this happened.

Paul Povolni (23:01.238)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (23:09.686)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Ramon Ray (23:27.806)
for me, not to me. Sounds a bit hokey, sounds a bit, know, nirvana, but there's something to that. It doesn't mean that we're not sad, Paul. Doesn't mean that we don't get down, but it means if every day we can close our eyes and, wow, let me, what can I get from this? We're setting ourself up for better success.

Paul Povolni (23:34.199)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (23:44.032)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I think in an age of social media, I think that's probably been one of the things that has really affected a lot of people's mindset around failure because they see these highlight reels of the things that people are doing. You know, they're, they're always on top. They're, crushing it. They're hustling and they're, grinding and they're succeeding and they're doing this and doing that. And so we see that and we don't see that messy middle that you, that you'd mentioned. don't see those times when they might not be as confident as they project.

Ramon Ray (23:56.076)
.

Paul Povolni (24:16.89)
online, you know, they don't always project the messy stuff and those that do it's usually like really, really messy. you know, but I think I think that's that's absolutely correct is is we we sometimes and probably more times than not, it's just with weighing in it.

you know, way, winged. And, you know, I've, I've told parents, know, parents have, you know, you know, I've been married 31 years now. And so, you know, I've got all the kids. Yeah, thank you just celebrated our anniversary. And so, you know,

Ramon Ray (24:41.356)
Congratulations.

Paul Povolni (24:48.216)
I realized when I became a parent that my parents were wingin' And that was quite a revelation. know, that most parents are wingin' it. You I mean, you could read the books, you could read the, you know, see the videos, see the training, and then you have kids that are unique and they're not quite, they don't quite fit in. And you realize that most parents are wingin' it. And I think it's the same thing for a lot of businesses is, you know, they all face different kinds of struggles. You know, the struggles are maybe self-inflicted, they're

Ramon Ray (25:10.017)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (25:18.17)
they're created from just their lack of experience, their lack of training, but there's always that messy stuff that sometimes we're embarrassed by, but that's what actually makes us who we are. And we learn from that, right?

Ramon Ray (25:30.668)
Yeah. And Paul, let me ask you, do you mind if I ask you a question? What have you and your wife done right to be married for 31 years?

Paul Povolni (25:34.799)
sure.

Paul Povolni (25:42.808)
Wow, that's a good question. I think what we've done right is probably realize that everything is temporary. Everything is temporary. Good stuff, temporary. Bad stuff, temporary. Struggles, temporary. And so if we could just endure through that by loving each other, communicating, talking, I think we make it through. And it's not.

Ramon Ray (25:52.394)
Mmm.

Paul Povolni (26:10.952)
looking at something as this is the end, it's just this is temporary. You know, there's another side of this. This too will pass, you know, and I think staying close and communicating and talking through those things, I think is what makes a difference. But when everything seems like the end, when you stop talking, I think that's when you get in trouble.

Ramon Ray (26:32.171)
Yeah, I love that. And I asked that Paul because I recently as well celebrated 32 years of marriage. So you and I very sympathically. Thank you. And I was just curious that rarely, you know, and again, God bless everybody. We're all in different seasons, but so and our friends have divorced, nasty marriages, abuse. So rarely do I talk to somebody with the youthful vigor of yourself, who I feel that kind of spirit with you at least, and who's been married that long. And so was curious.

Paul Povolni (26:36.768)
wow, congratulations.

Paul Povolni (26:57.176)
So what would you say? What would you say has been the secret?

Ramon Ray (27:00.733)
Yeah, think one is credit to my wife who had this axiom just saying she said Ramon, I choose to forgive you. So the choice of we're all going to do stupid, moronic idiot things, hopefully nothing too nuclear, because that can be a bit hurtful. But, you know, regular just stupid stuff, you know, whatever it may be, you crash the car, you just said a curse word to your spouse and a bit of anger, whatever, you know, those kind of

Paul Povolni (27:15.735)
Ryan, Ryan.

Paul Povolni (27:24.088)
Hahaha

Ramon Ray (27:26.509)
things, you know, I choose to forgive, you know, they, they hurt me, you know, because forget the minor things, right? You didn't make the bed, right? Socks. That's that's child's play for me and Paul. I'm talking about taking it up a level things that may be hurtful. You lost a job, you spent money wrong, you forgot an anniversary or whatever you are set on kind deed you you you you okay, then I'm gonna go whatever the stuff that will happen, I'm guessing in a longer marriage. But you say you know what, okay, Paul was angry, or he was an idiot, or I was wrong, I provoke whatever I choose to forgive because if not, Paul, the

Paul Povolni (27:28.001)
right

Paul Povolni (27:55.713)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (27:56.041)
Only option for that is a slide towards negativity. So I think that's number one is just choosing to forgive. I think the second thing, speaking man to man, because I've asked a lot of men this, I know this is about entrepreneurship, or maybe it's just about a head smack, we'll see, is wanting to be married. I'm a healthy male, just like the next guy, just like the next guy, trust me on that. But because I want to be married to my wife,

Paul Povolni (27:59.382)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (28:08.352)
Ha ha ha ha.

Paul Povolni (28:13.325)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (28:22.156)
Those are guardrails that can keep me as I'm out and about and just like, just as bad as any other person. But those are at least guardrails that I can say, no, I want to be married to this woman. So it's kind of a cousin of the first one I said, but I think wanting to be married and build together, grow together. And then number two, just repeating is the aspect of wanting to be married. So I think those two things and my faith, must say, I happen to be a Christian. So my faith for me, everybody may not be, but for me, that gives me an external guardrail as well, because I have something bigger than me above me, which keeps me grounded.

Paul Povolni (28:32.512)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:39.532)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:48.415)
Right, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think this is absolutely applicable to entrepreneurship and being a business owner because what happens at home affects what's happens in the office, you know, and having a healthy relationship and, and, you know, understanding the things that we both understand, you know, that helps in your business. That helps in how you do things, having somebody alongside you, somebody that supports you, somebody that that's there when you fail, when you, when you drop the ball, when, you don't feel quite adequate, you know, they're,

Ramon Ray (29:00.204)
Mm.

Paul Povolni (29:21.57)
to support you and it's quite an amazing thing. And, you know, in talking about failure, I think you also shared some things there that I think are very appropriate for people to think about is, you know, and I sometimes see failure as clarity. You know, sometimes failure will bring

clarity. Sometimes, you know, you'll try something and you'll give it your best shot, like really give it your best shot. And then we might fail because we go in half-hearted and we don't do it as well as we should. But there are other times and we give something our best shot and it fails and we should look at it as a clarity moment. Like we're learning from that moment. And it sounds like that's kind of what happened with you along the way is each failure, each struggle, each issue that you faced was actually a moment of

Ramon Ray (29:55.474)
Hmm. Yes.

Paul Povolni (30:06.906)
clarity.

Ramon Ray (30:07.912)
Yeah, I like that Paul. Failure is a moment of clarity. I like that. That's your next book. But the answer is yes. I think I like that. The reason I don't have more to add on that Paul, because I want everybody to nurture and chew on that. Failure, you get clear. So yes, get back up again. We've talked about that. Get back up again. Failure is a point to lessons learned. But man, that third leg and these are all kind of interlocking cylinders.

Paul Povolni (30:14.752)
You

Ramon Ray (30:34.08)
Failure is a moment of clarity. It kind of gives you some cold water on your head. And again, as we said, repeat, you may have to reframe it as failure. Is it a lesson learned? But Paul, man, moment of clarity. I'm taking that to the bank. And I'll quote you for the next 10 times. And the next time, after the 11th time, I'm going to own it.

Paul Povolni (30:46.392)
It's all yours. And so, with, you you talk, you have a website zone of genius. What is that about? What is a zone of genius?

Ramon Ray (30:56.652)
Sure. Yeah.

The real reason for it is I wanted a platform for Ramon. I had sold smartusl.com, I sold smallbiztechnology.com, and the third company I sold is my event business called Small Business Summit some time ago. And so Paul, said, I gotta have a place to hang my hat. When I said got to, I could just have a LinkedIn, I could just have Ramon Ray. I do have RamonRay.com. I got assets on there and things people can see. But I'm a content person, right? I like sharing.

and I could just have a substack medium, all kinds of tools. And Zone of Genius was done before even these tools got popular. So maybe my sixth iteration I'll do that. But Zone of Genius is really a place for entrepreneurs, small business owners, to kind of get a high level Ramones curated insights of the best of the best of what they need to know that day or that week.

That's what it's for. So there's the site itself, Zone of Genius, but tied to that is our email newsletter. So people can just sign up. You get emailed twice a week. We have our podcast, our events, and things like that we're doing. But ecosystem of all things entrepreneurship.

Paul Povolni (32:02.102)
Yeah, awesome. you know, we've talked about, you know, failure is clarity. So when it comes to failure and running a business, there's also resilience in starting a business and things like that. So talk a little bit about that, you know, through those those times when when it's a little tougher, what does resilience look like?

Ramon Ray (32:21.042)
Yeah, resilience is game-changingly powerful. And I think resilience when I think of grit by Angela Duckworth, she talks about that, the power of grit, Angela Duckworth. And resilience is, you know you're going to get punched in the face. You're still, metaphorically, you're still willing to go forward and still get punched in the face. But that means you're still going to keep coming and the punches will get lighter and lighter, you'll absorb them better and better, and maybe eventually the punches stop and...

a better version of yourself is birthed out of that. That may be a clunky example, but resilience is really the gift, power that you keep on going. You don't stop, you learn from it, and it's grit. It's that grittiness. And hopefully you're not in a season where you always have to have that grit, that hardness. Now there's always resilience you should have because you never know what's coming. But I think resilience is especially that thing that you need more of it in seasonality.

Paul Povolni (33:13.996)
Right, right.

Ramon Ray (33:18.708)
It's like birthing a child, you know what mean? Being a father of two, right? Is that the pain you don't want always be there, but you're ready for it when the time's coming, you're to birth again. So is that helpful for IC resilience? How do you see that, Paul?

Paul Povolni (33:30.036)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (33:33.954)
Well, I love what you kind of mentioned there briefly, and it kind of goes even back to what I talked about even in our marriage is seasons. I think seasons are so critical to understand that life is all about seasons, you know, and I think God established that. I think not only in nature, but I think even in life is that we go through seasons. And when we have an understanding of seasons, I think we have a better understanding of the temporary

Ramon Ray (33:43.788)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (34:04.758)
I was about to make up a word, how temporary. Yeah, there you go, there you go, you nailed it. But how, you know, there is a time of sewing, there's a time of when things are kind of, they seem dead, but they're actually growing roots, you know, they haven't quite popped through the dirt yet.

Ramon Ray (34:07.414)
Make... Make... Tem- Temporarity. You were gonna say probably Temporarity? Make... Now, own it. Own it. own it. Go ahead. Temporarity.

Ramon Ray (34:19.979)
Yes.

Ramon Ray (34:28.725)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (34:29.012)
And when we start understanding the seasons of life, I think that's also where that resilience comes in. just understand, I just got to make it through this season, you know, whatever it takes, either I've got to work a little harder because it's sowing season and I've got to be doing some sowing and I've got to put in the work. I've got to put in the hours. I've got to put in the commitment. Or it's like, man, it's a time for watering or it's a time for reaping or it's a time when things are just dormant. And I've just got to be patient through that season.

Ramon Ray (34:53.28)
Hmm

Paul Povolni (34:58.906)
And I think that kind of develops that resilience too,

Ramon Ray (35:02.036)
Yeah, and I like what you said, Paul, the development of the resilience is important. It having the resilience is okay, but it's the development of the resilience. think that's important. One of my pastors, his name is Pastor Carlin. He says in his deep 30 voice Ramon, keep the fire burning, referring to the fire inside us and other spiritual things. But the point is, it's not just have the fire, you got to keep it. So I like what you said also, developing resilience. I have a new grandson, name is Ezra, a baby.

Paul Povolni (35:17.078)
You

Paul Povolni (35:23.468)
Right.

Yeah.

Ramon Ray (35:30.188)
watching him crawl in the pictures my daughter sends, he's a baby, man. He doesn't know how to walk, know how crawl. The only thing he knew how to do is use the bathroom and suck that natural sucking ability. Only cry, only three things he could do, which is all he needed to do. But as he's growing, he now is developing. I'm pushing my bodies. I still don't know exactly how it's working, but the next week, his motor skills, this is what it is. So developing resilience and again, shout out to parents.

Paul Povolni (35:34.912)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (35:40.056)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (35:51.404)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (35:55.458)
Right, right.

Ramon Ray (35:59.127)
parents and older people, those who could be possible mentors and others. It's our job to teach and to help the younger people be resilient. Does that mean shut up, stop crying? No, crying is important. Something happened, the milk, proverbial milk spilled, but now I can teach you. Okay, it's been an hour now, it's been a week now. That milk's gone. Let's buckle up a bit and keep moving on. Teaching, I like you said, Paul, you're so right. You have to develop the skill, the trait.

Paul Povolni (36:07.744)
Right.

Paul Povolni (36:19.032)
Hahaha

Ramon Ray (36:27.486)
of resilience. So beautifully said.

Paul Povolni (36:29.484)
Right.

Right. Well, and I think that resilience power also, like you'd mentioned earlier on about, you know, the mouse type problems, mouse type abilities, mouse type opportunities is even with childhood and with those seasons is we're skilled, you know, during those seasons in different ways. And, you know, and I think part of that is what builds a resilience is during those seasons, during those times of understanding where you are being self aware and not looking at somebody that is two steps ahead and

Ramon Ray (36:36.396)
Mm.

Ramon Ray (36:43.584)
That's

Ramon Ray (36:59.606)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (37:00.056)
Envying them to the point of where you're paralyzed, but envying them to the point of motivation to do better, get better, learn more, try harder or whatever, but not letting that affect your mindset in saying, I'm not as good as them. Maybe adding the word yet to it is an important thing to do and not simply just leaving it at that and letting that kind of hurt you in the season that you're in.

Ramon Ray (37:27.636)
Yes, ooh, Paul, I like that. Adding the word yet, I've heard that many times. That's powerful. I can't, I'm not, I won't, yet. That just sets the whole frame, Paul. Paul, I know this is your podcast, your listeners, but Paul, when my audience sees this, this is so good. Can you just remind us who you are, Paul? Because when my audience hears this discussion, I want them to know who you are. they, your people know you, and my people know me, but my people don't know you. So can you just, if you don't mind, I know it's kind of weird, but I would like you to just remind us who you are, where to reach you.

Paul Povolni (37:35.18)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:53.847)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (37:56.8)
because I want my people to know more about you. This is so good, man.

Paul Povolni (38:00.514)
So yeah, so I've been doing brand strategy and design for 30 plus years. That's been my entire career. No diversions, no sidetracks, no, what's that? Yeah, yeah, really. After I got married, I went into my first job doing this. I mean, I've been creative my entire life. I've always been a creative thinker. I've always loved creativity. I pursued different things. I pursued acting and I pursued.

Ramon Ray (38:08.874)
You started with your wife, huh? You started with your wife, huh?

love it.

Paul Povolni (38:28.3)
you know, design and, and artistry and all of that kind of stuff, as a young person, but I've always been a creative guy. And so, yeah, pretty much after I got married, I went into my first job and it's been kind of my career. mean, I've bounced, you know, I've had my own agency with employees and I've had, you know, worked for corporations, white labeled for large businesses, worked for agencies, you know, all of that stuff. But I've always been a creative thinker and I've always been a, a creative, speaker. enjoy speaking, from stage and I enjoy doing work.

Ramon Ray (38:29.739)
Nice.

Paul Povolni (38:57.914)
workshops and webinars. And so I help people get unstuck. And a lot of that is through things that I've developed through frameworks, through creative thinking frameworks for getting, getting out of situations that you don't want to be in and just helping people do that. And so I've done that through coaching as well. And so that's kind of who I am. I've always, I've always been a creative thinker that helps people get unstuck.

Ramon Ray (39:05.196)
Hmm.

Ramon Ray (39:19.788)
And is it fair enough to say two sides in the branding design? Can you do my logo website brand strategy and mindset stuff? Or is it more just a mindset stuff? Just clarify. Okay.

Paul Povolni (39:25.568)
Ryan.

Paul Povolni (39:29.176)
It's both and my career has been doing both. so the brand strategy is starting from foundational things, not necessarily the logo. I think there's foundational stuff that needs to be done before you think about a website or a logo, whatever. And so some of that has to do with, you know, who you are, what you're about, who you serve and all of that stuff coming up with that. And then from there going into what does that look like visually? And so, both of those things is starting from a place of

brand strategy mindset, the way you think, the way you behave, the way you do stuff, and then going into what does that look like visually. so, yeah, that's been a fun career, but probably more than that even, I enjoy the speaking and the coaching and just talking to people and coming up with stuff. And a lot of the way I think and the way I process stuff has come from John Maxwell, actually. And I got to see him at the conference we were both at, and I got to tell him that.

Ramon Ray (40:27.276)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (40:29.076)
I got to tell him how much of an impact and influence he was in the way I think and even the way I process stuff, you know, with coming up with frameworks and coming up with memorable short ways to think about things.

Ramon Ray (40:33.941)
Nice.

Ramon Ray (40:40.588)
You've done a great job and I can hear it coming out. Maybe that's why this interview is so good. I'm learning from you. I'm receiving from you. Like failure as a, what was it? Say it again. Failure. Yeah, failure is clarity. Come on now.

Paul Povolni (40:45.153)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (40:50.402)
Failure is clarity, yeah.

Paul Povolni (40:55.576)
Well, this has been a very unique interview or conversation that you flipped there, flipped it on me. That's been awesome. That's a new one. But absolutely love this conversation. So talk a little bit about, you know, we talked about mindset for a little bit, but talk a little bit about a little bit more about mindset. I know

Positivity is a thing for you. think you're a great person to be around. You're passionate, you're positive. But talk about mindset and maybe some of the struggles maybe early on that you might have had, or maybe some of the ones that you deal with now in who you speak to and who you talk to.

Ramon Ray (41:30.668)
Yeah, I was listening to a professor and she was talking about, you know, the book, Strengths Finders, those who don't know that book, a behavioral assessment test, Strengths Finders, and as many like it. But one of my top strengths is woo, the ability to get people to feel comfortable around me and kind of a personality person, energy and all those things. And that doesn't mean I'm a hero per se, I'll take it on Paul's podcast, but that's my genius. Some of you may have your genius point I'm making, but she said, and as you probably know, there's a ceiling and there's a basement for all these.

Paul Povolni (41:37.9)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (41:51.266)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (41:59.019)
And so my ceiling is a connectivity being the jovial person, the life of the party, the humor person, bringing people together. But the basement, man, I can crash. I can get dark. I can be depressed. So to serve that what I'm going through, that's kind of a little bit about me. And yes, the part of mindset, what I'm trying to say is that I am the voice of positivity. Just about every morning, you look at my social feeds, my social stories, I'm giving a positive message every day, just about. That's me. So for me, how God's made me,

Paul Povolni (42:25.302)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ramon Ray (42:28.692)
is positivity. Even if my children have my daughter, especially it could be a little annoying, dad, can I just cry for a moment? I drop the ice cream, I'll be like, I was gonna do it, you know, I can be too positive, you know, or remote, you know, I say I crashed the cars I've done a few several times in our marriage, three, four times driving too fast. And I'll be like, okay, well, let's let's call the insurance Ramon. Can you just acknowledge? Can we be angry for a minute? You crashed the car, dude. I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry. But so

Paul Povolni (42:34.196)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (42:50.936)
hahahaha

Ramon Ray (42:57.836)
Mindset is important for a few things. think one mindset is important because your body will go the way your mind goes. Your tongue will go the way your mind goes. Your mind will control everything that's one. Number two, acknowledge that mindset also as you've hinted Paul with other things is something you may have to be trained and disciplined in. Everybody didn't grow up with a silver set of parents as a word of the silver spoon. You know, parents who all perfectly you may have been beaten the face for years by relative. So mindset is something we can all learn. Number three,

Paul Povolni (43:05.142)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (43:18.496)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (43:23.798)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (43:26.604)
Mindset is a choice. Something we can choose to do is always say, Paul, you can choose to be the thermometer in a room, which sucks all the energy and you're tuned to other people, the thermometer, or you can choose to be the thermostat in a room. That any room you're in, you choose to change the temperature. So that's part of mindset. think mindset, even Navy SEALs, the high performing athletes, they say it's a mindset game. That's the power of

Paul Povolni (43:42.166)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so good.

Paul Povolni (43:52.928)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then I think, you know, I wish I was as positive as you all the time. That's amazing. But it sounds like you also drive people nuts with it. I think. But, but I think I think also understanding, yeah, who you are and where your strengths lie and where your ability, abilities lie and looking at ways to augment that. I think we all have kind of our defaults.

Ramon Ray (44:14.656)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (44:17.124)
But we can always augment that with training, mindset training, with behavior training, with perspective training. I think perspective training is something we sometimes miss, is training our perspective of how we frame things also affects how we actually feel and how we behave in those situations. But one of the things that I've also, there's a book that I've, I'm a collector of books. So I know what the book's about, but I haven't read it yet, but it talks about the alter ego.

Ramon Ray (44:26.121)
I I mean.

Paul Povolni (44:47.268)
about the there's a there's a version of you that you can step into that is an augmented version of you but is for that situation so athletes do this I think Beyonce has is a Sasha fierce or something like that like she she says she steps into this alter ego to be the person she needs to be in that moment

And I think we could also look at ways that we might even be able to do that, that augmented self, that realizing that for this moment.

I need to do this thing and therefore I will step out of my fear. I will step out of my, you know, self, maybe not pride or not confidence or whatever, but I'm going to step into the situation and do what I need to do in that situation. Right. And have you ever sensed that, that you've seen people do that? Where they have this alter ego that maybe is not them, but it's maybe an augmented them that they use to step into a situation with.

Ramon Ray (45:23.084)
Mm-hmm.

Ramon Ray (45:36.46)
you

Ramon Ray (45:46.719)
And it's the first time I heard this was on the clubhouse social audio app, you know, birth during COVID. There's a community in there called Breakfast with Champions and Michael Zeller. First time I heard this concept of alter ego, never heard it before, but it's a real thing. And I'm sure sometimes, you know, people like us, if I can say it, Paul, do this. We don't always know the names of why we're doing it because we've had some work done in our own lives. So I haven't practiced it quite like that, but that's a powerful thing. Yes, because if you're a, you're a, you're a single dad who has a lot of fears.

Paul Povolni (45:51.968)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (46:04.6)
you

Ramon Ray (46:16.224)
wondering can you provide for your kids, can you spend time with them, let's say making up to something that, you know, whatever people can relate to. But you put the ego on, say you know what, my alter ego is not the fearful little dad, my alter ego is Paul Ra, combination of Paul and Ramon. My alter ego is Paul Ra, and I'm a strong dad who's present father, who's earning 200,000 a year, and I'm going to get this sale today, because I'm.

Paul Povolni (46:22.175)
Right.

Paul Povolni (46:31.704)
Hahaha.

Ramon Ray (46:41.132)
Confident and I don't know the fool that's how it's done But that kind of thing goes back to mindset right Paul you put that alter ego on and eventually I think what happens It doesn't even become your alter ego or your super hero like you have but it becomes you it becomes you and That's where it gets really powerful

Paul Povolni (46:42.55)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Absolutely.

Paul Povolni (46:56.118)
Yeah, absolutely love that.

Love that, love that. is yeah. And like you did is actually give it a name. I think is, you know, I am, I am stepping into this role. I am stepping into this and I believe that I will, will be able to achieve the things that I need to achieve in that role. And like you said, you eventually become that, you know, for me, you know, I enjoy speaking from stage. I had a recent speaking opportunity and you know, on stage, I'm a very different character than when I get off. and for me, the,

I know that when I'm on that stage and I'm presenting, I'm there to help people. I'm there to give them tools. I'm there to provide value and my fears, I need to put those aside because I need to do the thing that I need to do in that situation. Now, when I get off the stage, I'm way more chill. I'm way more, I'm not the same person that I was, but it kind of goes back to that example that you shared is, you...

step into the person and give them a name if you have to and say, you know, I am stepping into this role now and I'm going to behave like somebody who is like that would behave. I'm going to think the way somebody like that is going to think. And before long that actually could even become a part of who you are. I love that. Absolutely love that.

Ramon Ray (48:12.812)
I love it well.

Paul Povolni (48:17.56)
So, so, so what other, you know, I mean, those are some powerful mindset flips there. And I think those alone, the head smacks that I think could radically change somebody's, somebody's life is, is stepping into the person.

Ramon Ray (48:32.076)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (48:35.638)
that what would a person that makes six figures think like, what would they act like, what would they behave like and stepping into that and even giving them a name, I think is super valuable. What are the mindset lessons have you learned along the way or that you find yourself in your writing? You said, you do a lot of writing on your website that is really resonating with people as well.

Ramon Ray (48:45.974)
Mm-hmm.

Ramon Ray (48:58.368)
think surrounding yourself with other people who can also champion and cheer you on and who you want to be around, who can model the behavior you want to be. It's very hard, Paul, to go alone. It's very hard to be in life in this journey alone. God has not made us that way. So I think the more and more you can say no to the people that drag you down, more and more to the people who are toxic, say no more and more to the people who are just not good for your soul, for your spirit, even for your body. If you're trying to diet or eat better, people who are slurping soda and Coca-Cola.

Paul Povolni (49:09.153)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (49:25.154)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ramon Ray (49:26.604)
They can be around them, but maybe be around them when they're asleep. But the more and more you can be around, excuse me, around people and be around them via reading the books, be around them via listening to the podcast, be around them listening to their messages, but even be around them physically, be around them as friends, the more and more you can do that, the better off you'll be. That's how you have a strong mindset. People who play cards, who do they hang out with on the weekends? People who play cards, people who bowl at the highest level. Do they hang around golfers? No.

Paul Povolni (49:47.756)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (49:52.075)
Right, right.

Ramon Ray (49:56.32)
They hang around people who bowl on the weekend. Who do eagles fly with? Eagles fly with eagle. So who will Ramon and Paul need to hang out with? People who vibrate, that word, know, people who gel at gym at the level me and Paul are at and where we're going. This doesn't mean, you know, Aunt Betty comes home and she's a hot mess means Paul's to kick her out. No, but Paul can breathe and be like, Aunt Bertha's coming. Let me just prepare for her. She's family. But that does mean if Ramon's not good for Paul,

Paul Povolni (49:59.019)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (50:12.695)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (50:18.508)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (50:23.757)
Right.

Ramon Ray (50:25.472)
Paul can limit Ramon or say, Ramon, listen, we just talked yesterday Ramon. Let's talk again next month, briefly.

Paul Povolni (50:31.158)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And I love that. I love that. And I think it's a matter of being insulated, not isolated, right? Is, you get around, you can get around people that, you know, maybe are not the ideal people that you want to be around, but just in those times, you know, develop, you know, insulation, you know, ways to protect yourself from their influence. But isolation is very unhealthy because you're not around the type of people that could actually help you up level your game.

Ramon Ray (50:42.144)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (51:05.078)
that can inspire you and drive you and push you and question you and maybe push back and you know if you say something dumb they'll they'll tell you it's how dumb it is you know and so i think that's super good that's so valuable any other mindsets what are some other things that you've you've seen people also need to battle

Ramon Ray (51:09.12)
Yes.

Ramon Ray (51:24.652)
Yeah, I think John Acuff and it's funny Paul I'm sure you've gone through this when you're looking for the book that you reference all the time You can only find the book after the moment you need it in your life only after but I'm looking for John Acuff's book It's about sound tracks changing the sound tracks in your mind can't find it now It's up here in the shelf somewhere, but maybe I gave it away But the point is a book called sound tracks John Acuff J o n a c u u f maybe I know you know it but for your audience and Yeah

Paul Povolni (51:31.618)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (51:46.836)
Yeah, Yeah, John Aikoff. Absolutely love him.

Ramon Ray (51:51.828)
Great book and it really talks about just choosing to change the soundtracks just like a radio dial. Hello WCBS News Radio 88, there it's clear. So changing, choosing to change how you think, choosing to change how your mind thinks, choosing to change what you're thinking, I choose and understanding also how you got it that way. Maybe that came from your childhood, maybe because you were bullied, maybe because your teacher wasn't a good teacher.

Paul Povolni (51:59.975)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (52:13.175)
Yeah.

Ramon Ray (52:17.865)
variety of ways that we can get these things in our head, but choosing, I will choose to say that's changed the soundtracks. And Paul, I'm going through that as we speak. Yes, I'm a positive person. I have an outward force, but my own, one of my close relatives said, Ramon, you need to think more positive. Now, Ronnie, Paul made, whoa, Ramon, we just had a whole 50 minutes on positivity. But in my private life, when I get to close to friends, I can talk about, this is not going so well. this didn't go well. And I'm like, you know what? It was my sister.

I said, you're right, thank you. I need to, I am a good person. I do think positive, but I don't know. I don't think I'm alone. Everybody shows up a little different, you know, in their own, in the darkness of their room. So I need to do self-talk to me, Paul. So I need to change my soundtracks.

Paul Povolni (52:48.888)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (53:01.29)
Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Well, and yeah, it all goes back to that, what you're allowing in and what you're letting influence you. And even going back to what we talked about, about the alter ego and switching contexts and leveling up the way you think and feel and frame stuff. Even having a soundtrack to that, almost like when you get on stage, like your entrance music, like I am going into this mode. Sometimes even with

Ramon Ray (53:30.549)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (53:35.786)
know, being an entrepreneur and just switching that thing is coming up with a song that kind of puts you in that space, you know, coming up with music that puts you in that space. It says, okay, now I am stepping into, what was it? Paul, Paul Ramon, or what was that? That name that you came up with for the alter ego. Yeah.

Ramon Ray (53:49.779)
Yeah, it can change.

Paul Povolni (53:54.936)
is, you know, when you're stepping, when you're trying to transition your way of thinking is even having some sort of a ritual that puts you into that space would help you in switching that mindset. Whenever I play this song, whatever kind of song it is, that's my entrance music. That's when I am stepping out of who I've been. I'm stepping out of my Clark Kent and I'm putting on my Superman. This is that soundtrack for that. And so I think both of those are valuable.

Ramon Ray (54:03.243)
Hmm

Paul Povolni (54:24.93)
but even that soundtrack is, is what are you tuning into? You know, what are you listening to? What voices are you listening to? And maybe switching the channel sometimes.

Ramon Ray (54:34.217)
Yes, that's a yeah. Yeah. And because if you keep the same channel, you're to hear the same music. You have to be willing to. No, I've had enough of that. Click change the channel.

Paul Povolni (54:43.704)
Yeah, yeah. Man, this has been an amazing conversation. This has been so much fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A couple of flips there, a couple of unexpected turns there, but absolutely fun conversation. So if people want to learn more about you, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

Ramon Ray (54:47.699)
You're amazing Paul. I even gave you new name.

Ramon Ray (54:55.327)
Yes.

Ramon Ray (55:03.539)
Sure, a few things I'll say, but probably the flagship topic, flagship site, have a zoneofgenius.com, zoneofgenius.com, that's one. Also people can get to know me better. have so many things I offer, but ramonray.com, ramonray.com. And I will mention one more resource, a free app I just created for my first app. You never had an app before. It's called daily, dailymojo.com, daily, dailymojo.com.

Paul Povolni (55:22.612)
Alright, alright.

Paul Povolni (55:27.832)
Love it.

Ramon Ray (55:31.207)
Every day you can get a word of inspiration from Remotely. People have asked me for it, but you know, Paul, you can hire people and hire developers. just, I could have done it, but it wasn't worth the time. But I did this over a weekend and it's infused with a lot of the insights we shared here. so dailydailymojo.com free app. People can sign up and get a, get a, nice word and spread the word. So check it out, Paul, dailydailymojo.

Paul Povolni (55:45.11)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (55:54.0)
man, that's so awesome. I love that. I love that. And so I like to also ask the question, you know, what's a question that you wish I'd asked you or a head smack that you'd like to share?

Ramon Ray (56:04.821)
Hmm if you would have asked me Paul my definition of legacy I Would have shared that it's something I could talk about but I wasn't really living until recently So with a grandson who's here now seven months old with a with a Another grandson on the way born in a few months. I'm thinking more and more legacy and being a better example I'm a great example being a more intentional example

to family and building legacy. So my message on that, what I'm trying to say is, remember to think of your legacy, those who you're obligated to serve and teach, whether they're your niece, nephew, your children, but those around you were obligated to help them have a better life, especially if we're living a good life, we're obligated to make the runway even better for them.

Paul Povolni (56:58.304)
Wow. That's so good. And that all ties back into, you know, things we've talked about is family, family relationships and all of that plays a big part into developing that legacy. And so this has been an amazing conversation, man. Thank you so much for coming on and I've absolutely loved it. And I'll have those links in the show notes as well for people to check out your website, check out your apps. Definitely people should follow you on social media. You do put a lot of content on there.

Ramon Ray (57:13.173)
Thank you, Paul!

Paul Povolni (57:27.382)
a lot of great content, a lot of positive stuff, a lot of stuff, mindset stuff, stuff that could affect your business, your thinking, your life, your relationships. And so I do encourage people to follow you and connect with you. And you'll probably find all those links on those websites that we had mentioned. And thank you, man. This has been wonderful. All right. Have a great day. Take care.

Ramon Ray (57:45.503)
Thank you Paul, I appreciate it.