Lisa Cole / Chief Marketing, Product & AI Officer. Author. Speaker

Your buyers already have a preferred vendor before a sales rep calls.

90% of B2B companies pick their number one choice before any sales conversation ever happens.

And 85% of those deals go to whoever holds that top spot.

Four-time CMO Lisa Cole has a framework for making sure that vendor is you.

She calls it Content, Community, and Credibility.

It works whether you are a solo founder or leading a global marketing team.

She also breaks down why the headcount-first model is quietly draining your pipeline.

And what the marketing organization of the future actually looks like.

Hint: it is a small SWAT team of strategic orchestrators, not a bloated department.

Guest Bio: 

Lisa Cole is a four-time CMO and the Chief Product, Marketing & AI Officer at 2X, a leading B2B Marketing-as-a-Service firm where she drives growth through innovative strategies and operational efficiency. With over 25 years of expertise in B2B technology and professional services, she has transformed marketing organizations into scalable, profitable growth engines at companies including Huron, FARO Technologies, and Cellebrite. Lisa is the only two-time recipient of Forrester's prestigious Return on Integration Award, earning the distinction in both 2018 and 2022, and her leadership has earned additional recognition from the CMO Alliance and DemandGen Report for her expertise in turning marketing from a cost center into a revenue driver. She is the author of three books, "The Revenue RAMP," "Brand Gravity," and "The Limitless CMO," which equips marketers with actionable blueprints for modern, buyer-centric growth in the age of AI. Lisa is passionate about mentoring emerging marketers and advancing women in leadership. She lives in Michigan with her family and can be reached at lisacole.ai or on LinkedIn as LisaCole01.

LINK: LisaCole.ai

Paul Povolni (Voppa) is the founder of Voppa Creative and a creative leader with over 30 years of experience in brand strategy and design. Based in Jackson, Mississippi, he has worked with clients internationally, leading teams in award-winning branding while serving as a coach and speaker. Paul delivers workshops and keynotes on brand strategy, creative thinking, and organizational culture, and hosts The Headsmack Podcast: Conversations with Misfits. His work centers on helping organizations lead with Clarity, Creativity, and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Voppa Creative Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (02:52.932)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I am excited to have another misfit with me. I have Lisa Cole and she is a four time CMO in chief product marketing and AI officer at 2X. She's the author of Limitless CMO, a book about redesigning the marketing operating model for the age of AI. Lisa, how are you doing today?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (03:22.114)
I'm well, how are you?

Paul Povolni (03:23.426)
I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to this conversation, looking forward to learning about marketing and how AI has been affecting it and things have changed. But before we go there, I want to learn a little bit about you. And so I like to start with hearing people's origin stories, kind of where you got your start. You can go as far back as you want that'll make it relevant to our conversation. so tell me, tell me the origin story of Lisa Cole.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (03:49.502)
I will date myself a little bit here. I was selling cell phones in, I guess you could say, my senior year of high school and into college. I was an accounting major at Rhode Island College. And I was doing such an amazing job selling cell phones. I was making more money than what I likely would have made exiting college.

The company offered me a job to take a full-time account executive role selling cell phones, but selling it to mid-market and enterprise companies. Totally different than selling it in a retail environment. They're not even comparable. And very quickly found out I was in over my head, had no idea who to target, how to reach out to them, how to even think about navigating any sort of

Paul Povolni (04:35.172)
you

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (04:42.062)
prolonged purchase decision where multiple people needed to be engaged. So I asked my sales manager for help. How do I think about targeting? How do I find the right person? I asked my peers on the sales team. I got so many different answers, just a complete lack of clarity. I was even at one point in time told to look for leads in a Yellow Pages, which is not at all helpful in any way. Then someone told me to go.

Paul Povolni (04:57.678)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (05:04.386)
Wow. Not many people remember the yellow pages. For some of the people, they're like, what's a yellow pages? Just Google it.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (05:09.804)
I know, I know, that's what I mean about the dating. It's just a long list of 1-800 numbers for customer care. That's best way to put it. So I was told, hey, go check, go talk to marketing. Maybe marketing can help you with a lead list. Maybe marketing can help you with who to target and the stories to tell. And they were focused, they just wanted to hit me brochures. That's just, it was not useful in any way, shape or form. It was not going to...

Paul Povolni (05:36.996)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (05:37.678)
Definitely not going to help me retire my quota. But what I found through that whole exercise was just how much marketing and sales hated each other and how they blamed each other for all their problems. And despite all of this, the company was still growing at a rapid pace. was still, you know, again, the product itself was pulling it forward. And I was just so fascinated how a company could grow with such a disconnect between, you know, two major parts of their go-to-market engine.

Paul Povolni (05:48.967)
wow.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (06:06.926)
And that actually served as a catalyst for me to change my major to marketing. Because I believed in that equation marketing should have been a better support for my sales product. should have been making it easier for the company to figure out who to sell to, how to position, how to win these things. Well, that actually spawned the first half of my career about

15 years I was serving as a CMO advisor, specifically helping with sales and marketing misalignment. In the spirit of helping marketing go on the hook for a number. Historically marketing, if you look at how a company grows, they tend to treat marketing like the doers of things, order taking function, make this look pretty, make this on the brand, give us the more branded brochures. They're not necessarily, at least back then,

Paul Povolni (06:41.912)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (07:04.353)
They weren't tasked with actually driving pipeline, and they weren't held accountable to a number. And so when you, as a marketing leader, know that you're going to go on the hook for a number, you suddenly realize you likely need different people, different skill sets, capacity. You need different technology. The process is underneath the data that you'd need, the story that you're telling, how you manage stakeholder. It's entirely different.

Paul Povolni (07:08.14)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (07:30.798)
So I spent about 15, 16 years helping those CMOs lead that very disruptive but transformative change. But along the way, as most advisors and consultants figure out, usually your advice is picked apart. And so the leaders will pick, like this part, but I don't like this part. This one feels too hard. And I thought, geez, can you imagine the impact this work could have if they just ran the whole playbook?

Paul Povolni (07:38.584)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (07:47.364)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (07:51.075)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (08:01.358)
And so that inspired me to move to the brand side. And I thought this is going to be easier doing it for myself and going on the hook for the outcome. And I've since now led using that similar playbook three times, three different transformations, helping marketing organizations, very overworked, underappreciated functions turned into these market making growth drivers for their company.

Paul Povolni (08:04.898)
Okay.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (08:29.422)
two of which have earned recognition by serious decisions in Forrester for having a meaningful impact on the company's revenue growth. So that's the entire career. Now, I guess you could pull out some common threads there, but the reason I wrote the Limitless CMO is a lot of that transformative work you need to do is very supportive of accelerating your company's adoption of AI.

Paul Povolni (08:38.83)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (08:58.604)
It actually provides a nice foundation to work from. So there you go.

Paul Povolni (08:59.31)
Yeah.

So something that you mentioned there is the confusion between branding, the place of branding, the place of marketing, and the place of sales. So talk on that a little bit because there still seems to be that confusion in the marketplace. They expect branding people to be good marketers, marketers to be good branding people. Sales is somewhere in there. Some people say start with sales. Some people start.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (09:12.91)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (09:28.812)
Talk a little bit about that based on your experience in seeing this confusion or conflict or whatever it might have been. And what is the difference and what role does it play in the success of an organization?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (09:42.478)
I think the biggest debate that is happening right now as we speak is brand versus demand. So it's investing in how findable, understood, and chosen your brand is even before a conversation has ever had with a sales rep, right? That notion of that, or should we lean in and invest money in those campaigns, programs, or tactics that will drive pipeline?

And I think that's just the wrong argument to have. mean, you quite literally, you need both, right? You've got to be thinking about attracting and engaging and building trust with the right audience before they're willing to talk to a sales rep. And the way you do that is by delivering, you know, helpful, you know, smart and helpful content value that enables that research and evaluation product makes it easier for them to solve their problems.

Paul Povolni (10:18.04)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (10:41.431)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (10:42.124)
You can't not make that investment and think somehow the demand programs or those lead generating programs to support the sales pipeline is going to work. now. Now, I think that's always been the case, but what's fascinating to me and about a year, year and a half ago, there were three or four independent studies that just pay. They're really digging into how companies buy stuff from other companies.

Paul Povolni (10:55.126)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (11:11.688)
And what came through loud and clear in all of this research is that now for a number of reasons, a lot of that research and evaluation work is done by the people within these companies completely anonymously. And in fact, nearly 90 % of the time, that company has actually not only shaped its finalist list, it actually has the number one preferred on that finalist

before sales rep conversation has ever had. And the kicker is, that nearly 85 % of those purchasing decisions will pick the number one on that list. So the odds of you getting on the finalist list are not dependent on a sales rep. It's depending on how findable, understood, and chosen you are. But the odds of you even dethroning the preferred vendor

Paul Povolni (11:44.578)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (12:03.331)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (12:08.512)
on that finalist list through the sales. That's also an uphill battle. It's against all odds. And it's only getting harder because of the way that we're using AI now. So that pressure is just making it easier for all of that anonymous research. Like we don't have to wade through death by blue links anymore. We can actually have a conversation, have the agent go out, do all the research, come back, distill it.

Paul Povolni (12:12.632)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:20.568)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:31.692)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (12:37.27)
and chat with it about that information it's found, shape our little lists again without ever having to wade through endless, you know, clicking through links. I don't think it's going to get easier. So you need the brand in order to win when sales are actually engaged. But, you know, if you invest too much in brand, you never, you never actually monetize that engagement.

Paul Povolni (13:05.06)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (13:05.666)
So in that case, it's never, I mean, if you're to do this and you're not going to be smart about how you, you know, attempt to really engage in a meaningful way so that they will have a sales conversation, your pipeline will dry up. you can't do both. You can't pick one or the other. You actually have to invest in both.

Paul Povolni (13:17.92)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (13:24.488)
Right, right, right. And it's not a either or, you know, which one's better than the other. They're all absolutely necessary because, you know, if you don't have branding, you don't have what to market, you don't have what to sell, you don't have the attention like you talked about, you don't have, you don't get chosen because you're not doing the right things in the right order, in the right balance of activity, right?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (13:33.154)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (13:52.718)
Yeah, and I don't want to come across as biased towards marketing because at no point in time in this last couple of minutes, I didn't say, the sales are the heroes of this scenario. It sounded as though I minimized it, but that's not true. What effectively happens, they do all this research, but they're selling conversations with validating and clarifying the research that they've done. It's helping them scope and chart the path forward. no one is buying anything

based solely on something marketing has done. But I can offer to you that we're now in a phase where no one is buying anything from a sales rep without them doing background research and understanding what our point of views are, how we help people like them, how we solve the problem, what others like them are saying about the brand in communities. It takes all of us to be able to win and given just

Paul Povolni (14:25.7)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (14:47.212)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (14:52.322)
the data and how hard it is to dethrone the preferred vendor. It feels to me like you need to focus and really care about being on that list and being in that poll position before they're willing to talk to sales.

Paul Povolni (15:06.456)
And so what are some ways to do that? What are some ways to get in that position that you've found that's working? Because, you know, I do want to address AI and how it's impacted everything. But, you know, as long as Google's existed, we've always used it for background checks to check somebody out. You know, we've wanted to see that who we're choosing is the right choice, you know, and it hasn't, the list hasn't always been reliable. It's always been tedious. It's always pay to play, you know, people rise to the top because they manipulate the, the,

the algorithms and all that stuff. So what are some things that people can get in place to help them kind of become more visible or more chosen, more often chosen?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (15:51.82)
Yeah. I love that you called it out in sense that, we've been using the internet now, what, two decades, almost two decades, at this point to do this background research. I think the fun fact here is it's likely some of the same what you needed to care about even before AI was influencing our research and evaluation. comes down to three things, or at least I simplify it to three.

It's content, it's community and credibility. We had to care about that even when it was just a traditional SEO game, right? What's fascinating about those three things, so in the context of content, what questions are being asked? What questions need to be answered? Who's asking those questions? Where are they asking them? And of course, in what format is their preferred format to get the answer in?

Paul Povolni (16:29.573)
Right. Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (16:49.824)
And if you put that lens on that first piece, you realize that there's humans that you've always had to care about. But now we have AI agents or large language models that we also need to make sure that we know how they ask the questions, how they want it formatted. You now need to care about all those things for both humans and machines.

Paul Povolni (17:14.989)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (17:15.006)
More so than a search engine, a traditional search engine would have cared about. Community, I don't know a marketer that ever thought that we were going to see a resurgence around Quora, but here we are. We've got Quora, we've got Reddit, we've got a number of online communities and school and Slack. Now as marketers, we do need to care about making sure that our

our brand or our solutions are talked about in those communities, but do so in a way that again, and this is going to hit on the third one, which is credibility, that it feels helpful, that it feels valuable, that it feels credible, that it doesn't feel like a sales pitch. And there are various strategies to do that, but do it in an ethical way. And then that final piece, credibility, back to that brand demand debate we were just talking about.

Paul Povolni (17:52.74)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (17:57.89)
Right.

Paul Povolni (18:10.223)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (18:10.624)
For longest time, demand was winning that debate because it was growth at all costs. And people thought that maybe through the demand efforts, through those campaigns, that must be building the brand. That must be strengthening the brand. Well, some of the things we underfunded or under invested in were traditional PR, thought leadership.

Paul Povolni (18:31.619)
Yeah, wow. Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (18:35.368)
And those industry leading very large global enterprises that kind of spun too far over these AI native startups that whose founders are building in public and putting out smart and helpful content, like quite literally giving all these insights away for free, very similar to a podcast, right? Podcast, video, live video feeds, stuff like that.

Paul Povolni (18:56.505)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (19:01.944)
they're stealing share of attention and share of market from these industry leading trusted brands that no one would have ever questioned buying from a startup. But if I listen to this podcast for six hours on a Saturday while unfolding endless laundry, by the time I talk to you next week, I'll buy anything you tell me. Because I trust you and I know you know what I'm going through.

Paul Povolni (19:12.407)
Yeah, yeah, wow.

Paul Povolni (19:24.035)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (19:28.718)
So back to that content community credibility There isn't a magic bullet. I don't think there ever was But there sure as heck isn't one now

Paul Povolni (19:29.208)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (19:38.725)
Wow. now, you know, we've talked about marketing teams and, and, you know, some of the outdated models. What are some of the outdated operating models that you still continue to see even, you know, we're kind of three years into AI. And so what are some of those outdated models, operating models that people are still using that you see?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (19:58.67)
It's a headcount first model. anytime there's a, you know, let's say an executive team makes a decision that they want to bring a new capability to market or enter a new market. I think of a number of business strategies they want to execute on. The marketing leader in that equation tends to think, well, that's a new capability or that's more capacity I need. And they lead immediately with, I need more headcount.

And they think year over year, the way CMOs historically show up, particularly around budgeting time where, you you've just turned the business strategy into an annual operating plan. They then immediately want head count and increased budget. I think more people for their team. I want to add more people to my team. need three more designers. need another email marketing specialist. need.

Paul Povolni (20:28.622)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (20:44.911)
What do you mean by head count? What do you mean by head count? OK.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (20:54.84)
They just naturally default to, I need more to do the new things. That is getting challenged in a couple of ways. For more than a decade, companies were definitely in a mode of growth at all costs. And so if they wanted to scale revenue, was naturally assumed you'd scale the money you'd spend on marketing and sales, right? It was just, okay, I want more revenue.

Paul Povolni (21:00.983)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (21:20.812)
I need to invest in more people, more programs, more campaigns, more technology. We're no longer in that grow at all costs. It's got to be sustainable growth. And it also needs to be very flexible because the candidly after the pandemic and lots of things happen, you can't get yourself locked up in fixed costs. You've got to be able to be agile and flexible. So it's getting challenged from that perspective. And with that,

Paul Povolni (21:30.371)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (21:48.75)
The other piece that you know is challenging the marketing leader rarely has the hard conversation around well, what are the things I should stop doing? If it does it maybe I'm a very strong financial Steward for the company and I'm not immediately gonna knee-jerk and say I want more people to add to my team more personnel budget They're also tend to shy away from the hard conversation around we're going to begin doing a new market which adds three other languages

Paul Povolni (21:57.187)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (22:18.732)
the amount of languages I need to support for my content and in these campaigns and these events, what should I stop doing? and furthermore, what's super fascinating is that usually the marketing team, again, back to the order taking function of the C-suite, they also really tend to shy away from pushing back against things that requests that come in from the other functional groups that would not have an impact on those business strategies. So that

Paul Povolni (22:26.147)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (22:49.214)
headcount or more funding, more resources, I think is being pushed on for that. Especially at a time where non-marketers think that marketing can just use AI, they don't need people anymore.

Paul Povolni (23:03.693)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (23:05.101)
It's not true, but Sam Altman didn't help us with a statement of 95 % of marketing. Once we achieve AGI, we'll just be done by the AI. It's not helping in the boardroom. So that's probably where I would start.

Paul Povolni (23:15.299)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (23:22.661)
So why is it not helping? What do you see as being the problem with that kind of a statement?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (23:29.122)
Well, what it does that that personnel that more people, the more resources thing, what that what's it doing is is locking up more of their budget and resources to do the work. And we did some market research about a year ago and there are multiple other benchmarks where

they leave themselves very few dollars out of their total budget. Less than 25 % of their dollars are allocated to the programs that actually would fuel the pipeline. So they'll take away from paid digital, they'll take away from events, they'll take away from syndicated content and sponsorships and community engagement to just add more people to do the work. They're choosing between funding growth and funding capabilities. And I think the

Paul Povolni (24:21.7)
Wow.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (24:22.266)
mindset shift needs to be, stop that trade-off. Think of different ways, and there are lots of ways to be able to get the work done today. You don't need to own all of it in-house, and it doesn't all need to be done by a human. And the human should be thinking and focusing on the higher value, higher impact work, and then leveraging a variety of models that could help them get the work done so that you can still have enough money.

Paul Povolni (24:27.14)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (24:38.231)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (24:48.568)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (24:50.786)
to put into your programs to make sure that your content is findable. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (24:55.373)
Yeah, yeah. So what do think of Sam Altman's quote, though? Do you feel he's accurate? Do you feel he's way off? Is it just a AI person having big thoughts, big ideas, but in reality, it's not really true?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (25:13.39)
I think the quote itself was taken out of context. If you look at, if you go back to when he said it, I think what he was, it's recently come out that he was really just talking about the tactical execution work will and should be done using in some form of AI to do that work. He's not saying you need 95 % fewer humans. He's suggesting that the,

Paul Povolni (25:40.005)
Okay, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (25:42.19)
the tactical, repeatable tasks that we are bogged down by, that'll be taken away. And it should be. For example, if your source of joy in the world is to click the button 21 times to get an email set up in the platform out the door, you might be in trouble in this next phase. If your source of enjoyment is thinking, how can I reach and really genuinely engage

Paul Povolni (25:50.788)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (26:12.334)
my customer base, I'm going to use email, but I'm going to use it with these messages with this offer. You will do just fine in this next phase. You'll be free of the 21 steps to get the email out the door without any errors, without any mistakes.

Paul Povolni (26:27.503)
Right, right. So you've talked about AI and outsourcing a little bit already. Talk a little bit about that when it comes to the new operating structure, when you're talking about what the new modern CMO looks like. Talk to me about AI and the outsourcing and what that looks like.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (26:43.843)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (26:48.174)
Sure. So this one framework that I've been using for many years and certainly has become very relevant today is to think about what you should really own and keep in-house and is uniquely human, what should be outsourced. And marketers have been using forms of outsourcing for many years. And not here to surprise anyone, we've had agencies used for lots of work.

Paul Povolni (27:14.039)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (27:16.494)
and what should be automated. Within the outsource, marketing leaders have tended to think kind of in a very binary. I either want to hire some people and put them on my in-house team, or I want to outsource it. And within the outsourcing, it's usually the agency model, which is very project or tightly defined scope. They've not been...

educated on a variety of outsourcing models, which could include things like managed services model, where you subscribe to a capability that doesn't lock you into things like contracts. It's not scope-based. And if you have to pivot from one market to another or bring one capability to another, you're not locked in to these fixed contracts. Whereas IT, finance, and HR for the last two decades, they've mastered

Paul Povolni (28:00.291)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (28:08.149)
you know, managed services, freelancers, freelancers as service platforms, they have found ways aside from specialist agencies to be able to scale their function without scaling either headcount or personnel costs or without adding a lot of operational burden. And so imagine the burden that comes for the team that might have to manage a large network

freelancers or agencies managing different projects. So that's kind of the one piece. So own, outsource and automate. And the way I tend to kind of classify the work is if it's your secret sauce, your messaging, your positioning, where do you play, how do you win, your offer strategy, the overarching campaign strategies in terms of how you'll attract new audiences, engage and then monetize them.

That should all likely be in-house and human. They might use AI as a thought partner from a brainstorming standpoint, but that secret sauce you should own and keep in-house. Often what's fascinating in that situation is when there's a major market pivot and the marketer has to figure out how to seize the opportunity of that pivot, if they don't have the in-house capacity of skill set, it's that work.

that they give to a specialist agency. They'll actually bring on a brand agency or let's say a product launch agency to make those smart decisions based on your strategy. Whereas the in-house team is still bogged down by the day-to-day execution or repeatable task work that they might call the soul sucking. They don't get to do the fun work because some agency got this because of the turn time in order to deliver on that piece.

Paul Povolni (29:56.901)
Ha ha ha.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (30:04.084)
Own in-house, keep your in-house resources free enough where they can really focus on the higher value impact work. Think about anything from an execution perspective, where you could actually document standard operating procedures, where it doesn't need to be done uniquely from your competitors. For example, I use the email example. Do you really need to set up and deploy?

emails in a different way than your competitor does. Probably not. You can use best practices around subject line and calls to action, all of those pieces. That's a repeatable workflow that you could outsource to a variety of different partners. The bonus is, is if you take that work and you outsource it to an AI forward provider that's already figured out how to use AI to accelerate the workflow or against those

Paul Povolni (30:36.677)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (31:00.93)
those series of tasks, that kind of can be your leapfrog, if you will. And then anything that is repeatable and you could hire an intern and transfer over that work where there's a series of tasks and steps and give it access to context about your company, your message, your brand, your offering. And it doesn't require a lot of iteration.

Paul Povolni (31:27.587)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (31:27.818)
Out of the box, that's an AI thing. Now, whether or not you keep the orchestrators of AI internally and have them manage that work internally, or you outsource that repeatable work that AI could do that an intern could do, you could use an outsource partner for that too. But own Outsource Automate. And then within that, just think about how each one of those layers should be using AI in a responsible way.

Paul Povolni (31:55.363)
Now people have gone, you some people have gone, you know, all in on AI. and maybe they've, you know, maybe they've done things that they shouldn't, you know, cause you know, usually when new technology comes out, you kind of go, some people go all in and maybe they sometimes go too far. kind of, you know, you know, go too far to one side and then they've kind of got a spring back to a more sustainable model. Where are you seeing people making mistakes in implementing AI that you think that they need to kind of come back to a more reasonable place?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (31:59.725)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (32:08.81)
I'm sorry.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (32:21.966)
Paul Povolni (32:25.287)
Thanks

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (32:26.328)
Well, I think there's probably two areas that I'll highlight here. I'll go with the easy one first. Whoever the recipient is of that interaction, experience, asset, whatever that might be, I've not seen a whole lot of marketers talk about the recipient's expectation for that. So for example, would we expect that AI could write the copy of an email we receive in our inbox?

Absolutely. Don't care if there's an dash. I don't care if I see it. Right. Would we expect to see AIs influence in the LinkedIn post? Yeah, maybe. Would we want AI to automate the commenting? No. Like that. That what's the point at this point? Like if you're going to come then it should be the human that engages. Recently, I just recorded the because I am I am trying to demonstrate.

Paul Povolni (32:59.493)
you

Paul Povolni (33:14.948)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (33:25.784)
how far the technology can be taken. The book and the concepts in the book, all mine. But I used AI to interview me to make sure that as I was fleshing out each chapter, I didn't leave any critical thoughts out. And I wasn't repeating myself, right? I could be long-winded. So I'm like, all right, help me like to still my thoughts. I don't know many people that would push back against the use of AI in that way, right?

Interview me, this is what I'm trying to make sure the takeaways are for this chapter. That is uniquely mine, experiences, lessons learned, those things, not outsourcing it to an AI model. In other cases, I've seen people leverage things like AI avatars. Maybe as a chat support on a website, totally fine with that. Awesome, I'll get the answers to my questions faster. I'll get to where I need to go faster.

Do I want the thought leadership from the CEO as an avatar show up at an earnings call? No, actually don't phone it in. So I think if you start with that, like the recipient or the audience, would they expect and or want AI to be the heavy influencer? To what degree would they want it to be uniquely human? The other layer is there's a lot of AI theater, AI everywhere, impact nowhere.

Paul Povolni (34:32.739)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (34:53.582)
And it's usually because they've applied AI to what looks like a sexy use case. I just gave a couple of examples, right? Super cool that I an AI avatar that speaks 17 languages, even though you only speak English. But is it actually going to have an impact? Is it going to provide value to the audience or is it going to drive pipeline? And the kicker is those things tend to be very complex. It could be a 40 stage.

Paul Povolni (35:01.475)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (35:20.992)
an 8N workflow with integrations here and there trying to get it, but it drives no impact. And so what would the audience expect? And then on the effort versus impact quadrant, if you were to think high impact, low impact, high effort, low effort, focus on the high impact, low effort use cases, and that'll move the needle in a meaningful way.

Paul Povolni (35:27.097)
Yeah, well.

Paul Povolni (35:47.459)
Yeah, yeah, that's so good. And I think, you know, when it comes to new technologies, I remember I'm old enough to remember when the internet came out, you know, and I remember that the well, and the thing is, you know, there were some really, really great ideas that came out. mean, a lot of the stuff that we're even seeing now.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (35:57.28)
Should I

Paul Povolni (36:08.697)
Well, the ideas were there when the internet first happened, but the audience was not there. I remember, you know, there was talk about, you know, subscription models. was talk about grocery shopping online. You know, there was talk about getting stuff for your pets, you know, online. And there was all these things, but the audience was just not ready for it. The, the, the people were not ready for it. And I see that also happening with AI is, know, people are so excited about AI that they're implementing it in these relationships with.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (36:21.165)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (36:38.691)
customers and it's like, people aren't quite ready for that level of automation and AI working for them that they still want the human element in some areas. And that sounds like that's what you're talking about as well, right?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (36:55.118)
I do, I do. And it's 100 % what I'm talking about. And again, I try to be very AI. I certainly am AI first in the sense that when I'm going to do something, I will ask the question, to what extent AI could do this for me? And the next question is, to what extent will the recipient want AI to do it that far? So I go through those. That's 100 % what we're seeing. What I think will be interesting to watch over the next

Paul Povolni (37:16.409)
Right, right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (37:24.654)
18 to months of those companies whose brands become differentiated because they lean in against AI. And they decide to be truly uniquely human in every way. I don't know to what degree that they would push that before they would lose those things that could be competitive advantages, but I do think that might be one.

Paul Povolni (37:47.075)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that would actually become a positioning, a differentiation for a lot of businesses saying, hey, when you call us, you're gonna talk to a real person. When you email us, somebody's gonna email you back, that's a real person. And I think that definitely would become a...

a way that some people are going to try and differentiate themselves is bring them the humanity back and saying it's not, you you're not going to get pushed into a funnel of AI and never get to talk to a real person again.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (38:23.372)
Yeah, we talk about this notion of brain gravity and brain gravity is, you know, thinking about the how strong your brand is that kind of attracts your buyers. to do that today with the surface area we have to cover, you know, I just talked with you about different communities and traditional search that the different large language models are using different sources to cite and mention and refer you.

You know, all of the standard channels we had to worry about too far to just there's so much work there. We will never have enough resources to be able to now meet the buyer and all of like across all of these watering holes. And they're going to be, you can use AI to build your digital mass that strengthens your gravity, but just be very mindful of the content you produce, how you use AI so that it does feel credible.

that it does actually feel like it'll strengthen your brain versus damage it. But can you imagine taking one question and having to turn it into 20 questions because of all the ways that somebody might talk to an AI model and then having to produce all of those assets in a variety of formats for both a human and an AI model to understand?

We'll never have the resources we need to do that. So we will need to use AI to kind of meet that expectation. But should the thought itself, the recommendations that might be featured in that content, that should be uniquely human.

Paul Povolni (40:03.521)
Right, right. So when it comes to being a limitless CMO, when it comes to your book and what you've written in there, what are some of the other concepts that you discuss in there that would help a business understand the role of AI, the role of pivoting in this very interesting time that we're in?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (40:27.17)
The three core levers of the book are, and I really debated whether or not they should be three separate books, but it occurred to me that you actually need to pull all three levers to become limitless. The first one is think about marketing or run marketing very much like a business. If you are an entrepreneur, you know, maybe your marketing function might be some of your hours. And so maybe you're not thinking about

the marketing the same way an enterprise CMO would that has a thousand marketers around the world, but run it like a business. Maybe even think about it like an ATM. If you are putting money into marketing, you should, if you are doing it effectively, you should be able to get more money out of it. To do that though, you're going to have to be very intentional with where you place your investments.

Not unlike an investment portfolio. You're going to have those bets that you place that are the long-term bets and then there are going to be those that are short-term that kind of support and spin off money today. The reason I use the acronym ATM is because it stands for audience growth, trust and engagement and monetization. And so your investment portfolio should have long-term bets around brand to attract

Paul Povolni (41:41.583)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (41:47.458)
you know, your new audiences, you should be making some investments to continuously build trust and engagement with the audience that's already captive to you. And then of course, make some investments to monetize that level of engagement. That's one. The second we've already talked about is how do you think strategically about outsourcing? You do not need to do all this work yourself. If you're an entrepreneur, the way you might think about that is every hour of your time is worth something.

And so think about those things that are uniquely, should be uniquely human. That's your source of secret sauce. Those are the things you should be using your time on. The things that are not those, outsource it to others who have an expertise in that. Reup your time and focus it. That's the same, even if you are the CMO of an organization that's been an industry leader for

40 years and you have a thousand marketers, you should be thinking the same way. And then the final is when you think about AI, use it as a force multiplier. I had kind of implied earlier in terms of if you have a strategic in-house core team, your in-house people, that could be you, could be your in-house people. They should be thinking about AI as a thought partner. They should be thinking about AI as an always on strategist in their pocket.

that could either help amplify what they do really well and do it faster. Or we all have some areas of weakness. I may not be the best product marketer in the world, but man, I'm great with demand gen. I can use AI to help address the gap I might have from a product marketing standpoint so that I can be impactful for the business. But that's my thought leader. 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whenever inspiration hits me, I don't.

I should use it that way. Recognizing it, can be used more ways than just do the thing. Anyway, so AI is a force multiplier thinking strategically about outsourcing so that you free yourself up for high impact work and run marketing like a business.

Paul Povolni (43:51.907)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (44:04.569)
Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to outsourcing, do you have any kind of a formula that you use to help the person, whether it's the entrepreneur, the starting up a business or whether it's, you know, somebody that's running, like you mentioned, an organization with, with hundreds or thousands of marketers.

How do you determine what is the best to outsource? And you mentioned what your value is per hour. Are there any other things that you kind of talk about or that you look at when it comes to recommending that?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (44:36.704)
Yeah, I do think that there are different forms of outsourcing based on what you're trying to accomplish. And so being clear about what body of work you want to outsource. I think I gave an example earlier around that felt like this is more strategic work, it's point in time, it's defined and scoped, could very much be around refreshing your brand strategies, an example. You need a specialist expertise for that.

I would strongly suggest thinking about a specialist agency that can manage that project work. If it's that we talked about the execution work, right? When you think about all of the ways that we bring messaging and offers to life, marketing is actually a specialist function in the sense that because of the number of channels that we need to be found in and understood in,

Email, social media, display ads, Traditional search, an AI model, I can go and keep going. There's every one of those. Even LinkedIn in and of itself has its own best practices. And that's wildly different than the best practices for YouTube. That's wildly different than it might be for Spotify and podcasts, right? That's all specialist work, but it doesn't need to be uniquely your secret sauce. So when you outsource,

Paul Povolni (45:41.603)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (45:48.761)
Yeah.

Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (46:03.926)
You can outsource that execution work, but do so in a way, and this is managed services is a great example of this, do so in a way that gives you some form of competitive advantage or leverage. That can come in a number of different ways. It could be that they have documented best practices on email marketing best practices as an example, LinkedIn best practices.

Also, it could be that they could be scaled up, scaled down as your needs evolve through the year. So most marketers at this point wrestle with a heavy concentration of events in certain quarters, in certain months, but they try to staff up in such a way for that highest peak period, but then they have excess capacity and or locked costs for the rest of the year. If you're thinking strategically about outsourcing,

you're looking at a potential managed services provider, you could subscribe to the talent, pick it up, but then scale it back down so that your dollars aren't locked up there and you can use it in other ways. That's a model that's very different than a discreetly scoped project. For example, I was a CMO of a company and we had spent nearly like four months developing this end-to-end campaign to bring this new capability to market.

Paul Povolni (47:09.261)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (47:28.328)
And I still, I'll never forget this moment. We were just about to launch it and Tom Abravo went out and acquired our top two competitors and announced that they were going to integrate it. the integration of those two dramatically changed how we needed to position this capability. That agency didn't say, you can have your money back. Like quite literally, no, they were paid to finish the work.

Paul Povolni (47:45.293)
Right, right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (47:56.846)
And like that's the body of work. Rather than if you're in a managed services type form or let's say a subscription services, before that work is finished, you could say, all right, we're going to stop this work and we're going to pivot in this way. Like that could become a competitive advantage. The ability to scale up and down, but also pivot, which I kind of think about it in that way. And then finally, I do think that

Paul Povolni (48:10.894)
Right.

Paul Povolni (48:18.051)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (48:26.158)
That which can be outsourced will be documented. You'll get your workflows task-fied. You kind of have to figure out who's who in the zoo and how the work gets done. That natural effort for a large global enterprise, believe it or not, is a very cumbersome, hard thing to do. That naturally sets the stage for thinking about how AI should be applied to accelerate those workflows to improve the quality of the output.

Paul Povolni (48:36.483)
Right.

Paul Povolni (48:53.156)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (48:56.14)
make sure you pick a partner that through that process does actually help you get your house in order. And there's already AI forward and thinking, do we really need to take 97 days to get a full campaign out to market? We could probably do this in two weeks if we can compress these review cycles. anyways, that's how I tend to think. The book has ways to evaluate partners.

Paul Povolni (49:03.939)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (49:15.075)
Right, right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (49:23.096)
how to manage multiple partners in an ecosystem, because it rarely is one that solves for all things, and do so in a way to kind of reduce your operational burden.

Paul Povolni (49:34.307)
Yeah. Something that you said that is very interesting that I want to make sure that people hear as well is when it comes to marketing in different channels, you you mentioned LinkedIn, YouTube, things like that, Facebook, that there are very particular skill sets needed to effectively market in those channels. And a lot of people think that, you know, I've got my logo guy and he's going to help me do my marketing. And it's like, well, the logo guy might not be qualified.

to do the marketing that you need done, or even the marketing agency, you know, they might be generally good, but they're not specifically good for certain channels. so finding those specialists that are really, really good at a particular channel and understanding which ones to choose, I think is a valuable and a very important part of growing as a business is understanding that there are some people that just

eat, drink, live, LinkedIn marketing. And it's very different to the person who does the same for Facebook. And you can't cross over with the exact same strategies.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (50:41.4)
They're not. that's, think therein lies the challenge with marketing that I think is unique from the other functional groups is it really the sheer number of channels and the wildly different personas we're trying to sell to and their preferences in those channels. They, and they're just so complex. You know, the, the rise of the marketing technologists was true more than a decade ago. I mean, just think through as people started adopting websites and then

Paul Povolni (50:51.589)
Yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (51:08.246)
smartphones and social media and community channels, all of these things, there is a natural tech enabled component to it. There's a complexity to every one of those channels. And each one of them has their own algorithm that shifts to try to keep those people on those platforms so that they don't go from LinkedIn to Facebook to X. It's amazing how fast the marketing function can get bloated with specialists everywhere.

Paul Povolni (51:19.845)
Right.

Paul Povolni (51:29.081)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (51:38.242)
because the marketing leaders know we're all consumers. I know what good looks like on LinkedIn when I'm scrolling and what keeps me on the platform. And I know the stuff that I would expect there is not at all the same that I would expect on X or that I would expect in, let's say Reddit, right? These are very, very different things. LinkedIn now has, you know, they're testing YouTube shorts or not YouTube shorts. They have their own view of shorts that I think

Paul Povolni (51:57.057)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (52:08.206)
algorithmic is not the same as TikTok is not the same as a YouTube short. And having someone know the nuances of that is what gets you found, understood and chosen. But we can't afford to have people for everything. I can't afford to just have one person doing Reddit all day or one person doing LinkedIn all day. That's I think that's how we ended up with these bloated organizations to begin with, which is why we sometimes don't have the credibility we need in the C-suite because we have

Paul Povolni (52:19.873)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (52:23.91)
Hahaha.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (52:38.594)
so many specialists and people don't understand why we need four social media people. Well, because those four channels that matter to us, they have very, very different requirements. So use outsource for that because the way you show up in LinkedIn, what will differentiate you is what you're actually saying. But the best practice is to make sure that the algorithm serves up and makes sure more people sees your point of view. That can be done by...

Paul Povolni (52:49.635)
Right.

Paul Povolni (52:58.337)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (53:07.298)
LinkedIn specialists.

Paul Povolni (53:09.337)
Right. Well, and I like what you said there is the channels that matter to us. think, you know, not everybody needs to be on every single channel. You need to find the channels that actually that's where your audience is. That's where your ideal customer is and not feel that you've got to be everywhere. If your audience is not on Facebook, you know, then don't invest a lot of time in hiring a specialist for Facebook because that is a lot of wasted time. You know, you might just need to focus on some of the other areas that you had mentioned. And I think that's, that's where some people

make a mistake. think they've got to be omnipresent everywhere, but that's just bad strategy because they're not understanding where their audience is, right?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (53:46.924)
Yeah, I can offer to you that after Twitter was rebranded to X and there was a massive layoff. So basically all the marketers, you weren't going to find a marketer on X. No reason to even think about putting something on an X. Quite literally on LinkedIn, they were talking about how they were all closing their X accounts. So guess where I needed to be? I needed to be on LinkedIn for that audience. Understanding that, I think that's the online.

Paul Povolni (53:58.947)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (54:10.627)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (54:15.801)
Yeah, well, it's already almost been an hour. This has been amazing. I like to usually end by asking, what's a question that you wish I'd asked you or a head smack that you'd like to share?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (54:39.134)
What is the, well, look, I think there are a lot of things, but what is the marketing organ of the future look like?

Paul Povolni (54:49.593)
So what does it look like?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (54:51.596)
I think it's a very small in-house team. That small in-house team are strategists with superpowers. And I think that they become orchestrators. They become the orchestrators of the business of marketing. And what they are orchestrating is a combination of human partners and AI agents. But it's not a

There aren't many layers in the org. It's a very thin layer. It's a very flat org, small in-house team. They operate very much like a SWAT team, so to speak. They are assigned to a business outcome and they orchestrate their way to those outcomes.

Paul Povolni (55:38.573)
Well, now with an organization like that, how do you, like, you know, with a lot of organizations, you kind of work your way up to where you get to that position of being the orchestrator, the overseer, you you kind of do, pay your dues, you know, as you work up, you get the insights and the intuition and the training and the knowledge. if, you know, organizations of the future just have this higher level, how do people get up to that higher level if there is no middle, you know,

and even if the low end is not there, how does that happen in the future? How do you see it happening?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (56:14.636)
I think that is the million dollar question right now, right? Is that we're thinking about the entry level roles and candidly, think there's a number of ways to make this happen. But if you are just entering college or you're coming out of college or let's just say you're ready to enter the workforce, what are you doing to understand how to leverage AI, both from a self education

right, scenario planning. Now you can actually be using AI to get that stuff that you might've had to depend on a brand or an employer from a real world experience standpoint. But I think the unlock here is that if I were to focus on a soft skill, if you're strong at communicating and managing or delegating to someone else.

If that has always been a strength of yours is empowering someone else to execute against a task or a series of tasks. In the age of AI, that is going to become your superpower, your ability to communicate what it is that needs to get done. And then if you don't, if you have such limited experience, and this is just my advice to people, ask AI for advice on how.

that work has historically been done by others and what are the ways I can and should be using you to get that work done now. But I think under, you know, the piece that lies in there is understanding, can you empower someone else to do a body of work and that soft skill and get very clear communication. Use it personally.

When I think about some of the, like I'm in the process of buying a new car, my ability to articulate what it is that I really genuinely want in a new car to chat GPT, and then having it ask me a series of questions so I can really get clear on what matters to me and what doesn't. That's an example of what you will need to succeed in the business environment in the future. If you can do that.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (58:39.532)
I think you'll do just fine. And we might see that this next phase of growth is really entrepreneurs that are focused on using AI to solve a real business problem, and they don't need to go work for someone else. I don't know.

Paul Povolni (58:53.165)
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, it is an interesting time that we're living in. you know, it's hard to believe that it's only been a couple of years, you know, that we've had AI available to us to use. And so I think there's going to be, you know, there's going to be some failures, there's going to be some successes, there's going to be some learning, there's going to be some pivoting, there's going to be some readjustment. But we're still in the early stages, know, AI is still a baby and we're still trying

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (59:02.019)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (59:23.079)
trying to figure this out of how this baby has changed our lives. And I think there's going to be a lot of interesting time ahead when it comes to AI.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (59:33.518)
I feel like I sit because I focus on this or really I care deeply about marketing and helping marketers kind of navigate this next phase. I get exposed to fairly advanced use cases, but what I failed to recognize is that everyone around me is still really early in their understanding of AI and their adoption of AI. So even that last piece of advice of have you actually just opened up

Paul Povolni (59:57.381)
Right, right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:00:03.606)
whatever chat bot is your preference, chat GPT or Plexi, whatever one you want. And just simply said, this is what I'm trying to do. How can I use you for this? Just ask that one question. That in and of itself is probably just a lightning bolt for everyone around me. They're not trying to engineer or reimagine how an end-to-end campaign goes from an idea out to market in 10 different channels.

Paul Povolni (01:00:14.842)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:00:33.103)
Right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:00:33.198)
quite literally saying how can I use this in such a way that helps me with the thing that I'm wrestling with at this moment. It's gonna take a couple years. Human friction is gonna be the thing that slows this train down, even if AI is more capable.

Paul Povolni (01:00:40.921)
Right, right. Yeah, I remember that.

Paul Povolni (01:00:51.501)
Yeah, yeah, I remember the first time I used AI, was just, you you, you asked it a question, and suddenly it pops something back and you read it and you're like, it's that like, like you said, that lightning bolt moment, it's like,

Wow, that came from a non-human and it's pretty good what it told me. I think, I think just like you said, just adopting it and trying it out. and then starting to look at and talk to people that are experienced with it into integrating it into your business in ways that is actually practical and usable.

and make sense and then you can elevate that and as you talked about the automations and innate in and all these connections and all these, know, you don't feel that you have to do that from the very first thing, just, just talk to it, just give it a, give it a shot and you'll, you'll see how you can start implementing it into your business.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:01:42.702)
everyone's having this clogged code moment where they're out and assembling, gathering hundreds of skills and yet they use it and the output's not that great. Like, well, have you just asked it for advice on how to solve this challenge you're dealing with? And if you are using a skill, do you know why you're using it? Aside from the fact that it sounds really cool. Like, do you know what good enough looks like so that you can have it improve the skill after you use it once?

Paul Povolni (01:01:45.893)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:02:01.123)
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:02:12.344)
Do you know that even if you use a skill, if it get poor output, you can ask it to edit its own instructions based on what it's learned from the feedback you've given it. Those are the things that would be the real unlocks, not trying to stitch together 17 skills across a workflow, right? It sounds great. It looks awesome. It's crazy sexy, but no, doesn't need to be.

Paul Povolni (01:02:30.533)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (01:02:37.805)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. love that. Lisa, this has been amazing. So if people want to find out more about you, if they want to get your book, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:02:46.67)
Personally, there are two ways to get ahold of me. I'm LinkedIn, LisaCole01, and my personal website is lisacole.ai. If you are a go-to-market leader and you are struggling with how to scale your impact, wrestling with limited resources, all the things we've talked about, you can find me at 2x.com.

Paul Povolni (01:03:13.967)
Awesome. And I'll have those links in the show notes as well. And of course, your book, can I get the book on Amazon? Can I get it? All right.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:03:17.55)
Thank

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:03:22.016)
It is on all online retailers. also there's a link, a universal link on my website, lisacolle.ai to find it as well.

Paul Povolni (01:03:33.989)
Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Lisa. This has been wonderful. A lot of great insights, a lot of stuff that I think a good head's max for people to think about when it comes to what they're doing at whatever place you are in your business, whether you're just starting up entrepreneur to whether you're running a large corporation. I think you've shared a lot of great insights and I appreciate you coming on.

Lisa Cole, CMO Of 2X (01:03:54.158)
Thank you very much for the time and the comfort. I really enjoyed the conversation. So thank you. You too.

Paul Povolni (01:03:58.169)
Thank you so much. a great day.