Brandon Triola / "Save the Creatives" Chief Creative Officer. Author

Brandon Triola almost threw away his creative dream before it began. Now he's on a mission to save every creative professional from making the same mistakes he did.

As the co-founder and Chief Creative Officer of Forrest.co, a global brand and marketing consultancy serving B2B tech companies, Brandon has spent the last 15 years building award-winning brands for bestselling authors and publishing giants like Thomas Nelson and Baker. His strategic campaigns have generated millions of dollars in revenue for personal brands and global tech firms.

But his journey wasn't always decorated with accolades. After crumpling up multiple scholarship offers to prestigious art schools and battling two mental illnesses as a young creative, Brandon faced a harsh reality: creative talent alone doesn't translate to business success. Through failure, persistence, and hard-won lessons, he transformed his creative career into multiple successful businesses and a multimillion-dollar consultancy.

His bestselling book, Save The Creatives: 8 Uncommon Keys for Achieving Abundant Success and Bulletproofing Your Career Against AI as a Creative Professional, has maintained its position in the top 10 of Amazon's bestseller lists for over a month. The book's title came from an unexpected source—his editor pointing at the hat he was wearing during a manuscript review—proving that sometimes our best ideas are right in front of us.

In this conversation, Brandon shares the raw truth about caring too deeply for your work, why emotion can be both your greatest asset and biggest liability, and the uncommon keys that separate struggling creatives from those experiencing abundant success. He also discusses his vision for building a creative culture where unlimited PTO isn't just a perk but a reflection of values, and why the future of creativity isn't about competing with AI—it's about becoming irreplaceable.

Brandon lives in Franklin, Tennessee with his wife and four kids, runs a free community for creative professionals, and maintains an above-average jump shot for a 36-year-old dad.

Guest Links

• Get the Book from Amazon
• Forrest.co
• Savethecreatives.com

Paul Povolni (Voppa) is the founder of Voppa Creative and a creative leader with over 30 years of experience in brand strategy and design. Based in Jackson, Mississippi, he has worked with clients internationally, leading teams in award-winning branding while serving as a coach and speaker. Paul delivers workshops and keynotes on brand strategy, creative thinking, and organizational culture, and hosts The Headsmack Podcast: Conversations with Misfits. His work centers on helping organizations lead with Clarity, Creativity, and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Voppa Creative Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (02:24.158)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. My name is Paul Pavolny and I have another misfit with me. I have Brandon Triola and he is the author of the best selling book, Save the Creatives. He also is the co-founder of Chief and Chief Creative Officer of Global Brand and Marketing Consultancy for B2B tech companies called forest.co. He lives in Franklin, Tennessee with his wife and four kids. How you doing Brandon? I'm doing good, man. Thanks for having me on. I'm really pumped.

Brandon Triola (02:53.912)
I'm doing good, man. Thanks for having me on. really pumped.

Paul Povolni (02:57.118)
Yeah, I'm really pumped as well. Love the hat. Love the topic of your book. Love the discussion that we're going to have today. I think it's going to help a lot of people, a lot of creatives and even those within business. think they're going to get some nuggets out of this, some head smacks that are going to help them along the way. Yeah. Thanks man. For those listening on the podcast, I can't see it. My hat says save the creatives. And the funny story about that is I made these hats about a year and a half ago. This is kind of like a, this is like a mantra.

Brandon Triola (03:12.206)
Yeah, thanks man. For those listening on the podcast, I can't see my hat says save the creatives. And the funny story about that is I made these hats about a year and a half ago. Just as kind of like a, this is like a mantra kind of like a rallying cry. saw a lot of creative people getting sort of freaked out by what was happening with AI. The irony is at the time I had started writing a book.

Paul Povolni (03:26.506)
Kind of like a rallying cry. saw a lot of creative people getting sort of freaked out by what was happening with AI. The irony is at the time I had started writing a book and I was almost done with the manuscript and I was working with my editor one day and he said, look, the manuscript is looking great. There's not really any major changes. a, there's a few things we need to add, but she's really smart. Major publishing companies and she's like a legit book editor.

Brandon Triola (03:37.578)
And I was almost done with the manuscript and I was working with my editor one day and she said, look, the manuscript is looking great. There's not really any major changes. a, there's a few things we need to add, but. And she's really smart major publishing companies and she's like a legit book editor. name's Catherine. I'll give her a shout out here. She said to me, she goes, let me make a suggestion. I think you need to change the.

Paul Povolni (03:56.48)
Her name's Catherine. I'll give her a shout out here. She said to me, she goes, let me make a suggestion. think you need to change the title. Oh, well. And I said, okay, I'm all yours. And I was wearing my save the creative hat. And I said, you know, what do you think I should call it? And she just kind of pointed up. It was like, you should call it that. And I was like, it was like a light bulb moment. It's funny because right as creative people, sometimes we think we have a good idea. It's not the best idea. was awesome.

Brandon Triola (04:03.546)
And I said, okay, I'm all yours. And I was wearing my Save the Creatives hat and I said, you know, what do think I should call it? And she just kind of pointed up. It was like, you should call it that. And I was like, it was like a light bulb moment. And it's funny because right as creative people, sometimes we think we have a good idea for something. It's not the best idea. was awesome. Instantly my brain exploded. I was like, we're changing the title. So we changed the title of the book, Save the Creatives, the eight uncommon

Paul Povolni (04:23.584)
Instantly my brain exploded. was like, changing the title. So we changed the title of the book to save the creatives, the eight uncommon keys for achieving abundant success and bulletproofing your career against AI as a creative professional. And then I got so excited, you know, gave me a little bit of fire in my soul to get the book finished, the finish line. And you know, so far it's been amazing. I mean, we've been on in the top 10 of an Amazon best seller list for about a month now.

Brandon Triola (04:30.97)
for achieving abundant success and bulletproofing your career against AI as a creative professional. And then I got so excited, you know, gave me a little bit of fire in my soul to get the book finished, the finish line. And you know, so far it's been amazing. I mean, we've been on in the top 10 of an Amazon bestseller list for about a month now. We've almost gotten to number one a couple of times. So, you know, it's a bestselling book now, but it's to have seen it, not just stay there, but...

Paul Povolni (04:52.638)
almost gotten to number one a couple of times. you know, it's a best-selling book now, but it's cool to have seen it, not just stay there, but so many creative people. I'm getting such great feedback on the book. It's really humbling. I wrote it to kind of the younger version of myself. You know, it's all the stuff that I've learned the past 15 years. There's a lot of stories of failure in there and stuff like that, but I didn't really think or believe that it would have the impact that it's had already. So I'm really thankful for it because at the end of the day,

Brandon Triola (05:00.428)
So many creative people, I'm getting such great feedback on the book. It's really humbling. I wrote it to kind of the younger version of myself. You know, it's all the stuff that I've learned the past 15 years. There's a lot of stories of failure in there and stuff like that, but I didn't really think or believe that it would have the impact that it's had already. So I'm really thankful for it because at the end of the day, I just want to help creative people. don't feel like anybody's really doing anything. I will say.

Paul Povolni (05:21.46)
I just want to help creative people. don't feel like anybody's really doing anything. So I will say I'm excited about your podcast because I feel like you're trying to do that as well. Like you're interviewing people. I love the Misfit thing. I've always felt like that a little bit. And so I love what you're doing as well with this. think it's giving creative people a voice and then the creative people that listen to this, it's giving them courage. So I'm really excited and proud to be here.

Brandon Triola (05:25.666)
I'm excited about your podcast because I feel like you're trying to do that as well. Like you're interviewing people. love the Misfit thing. I've always felt like that a little bit. And so I love what you're doing as well with this. think it's giving creative people a voice and then the creative people that listen to this, it's giving them courage. So I'm really excited and proud to be here. Thanks.

Paul Povolni (05:46.164)
Thanks, man. Well, I'm excited about it as well. I love, I love the head smack moment of coming up with the title. that was amazing. I think, you know, for, least for me, like even with, with coming up with the title for this podcast, for me, it was, I was wrestling with it was so long. I knew I wanted to do a podcast. I knew I wanted to kind of do something and interview some interesting people, but I just couldn't get the right title and the right thing. Like what was it about? And it wasn't until, you know, I was.

Brandon Triola (05:52.503)
was a head-mag moment.

Paul Povolni (06:15.762)
on a long drive on a cross state road trip and the title came to me and the subtitle came to me, the conversations with misfits. And once I had that, then it was like, now it all comes together. And it sounds like that's what happened with coming up with a book title. It was like, yeah, that totally ties it all together. It's the big idea that I've been looking for. Yeah. And I love that because I feel like we do have those head smack moments, right? As creative people and

Brandon Triola (06:39.15)
Yeah. And I love that because I feel like we do have those head smack moments, right? As creative people. And for me, things are very similar. Like when I'm working with clients, we have massive pet clients that we work with. And so there's a strategic process that you go through to land on certain things and to be creative. But then when it, what's my own stuff, it's, it's a head smack. It's not the same strategic roadmaps that I use in clients. They don't work with yourself sometimes. And sometimes it's somebody.

Paul Povolni (06:45.716)
For me, things are very similar. Like when I'm working with clients, we have massive pet clients that we work with. And so there's a strategic process that you go through to land on certain things and to be creative. But then when it, what's my own stuff, it's, it's a head smack. The same strategic roadmaps that I use in clients, they don't work with yourself sometimes. And sometimes it's pointing or like a road trip that you go on where you just have this moment where you're like, yeah, that's.

Brandon Triola (07:07.854)
morning or like a road trip that you go on where you just have this moment where you're like, yeah, that's the dots are connecting. I love.

Paul Povolni (07:13.886)
The dots are connecting. Right. Right. And, for me, at least until I have that big idea, I feel like it's stuck. It's unfinished. Like I don't, I don't have, I don't have my mind wrapped around it. I don't have a container for these million ideas going around in my head. And once I have that, you know, that, that big idea around my stuff, like, yeah, I'm the same way, you know, I can.

Brandon Triola (07:26.285)
Mmm.

Paul Povolni (07:40.288)
I can create all kinds of stuff for other people, but when it comes to doing your own stuff, your own logo, your own branding, you kind of get stuck. And so for me, I was kind of stuck in that place and it's like, well, you know, what do I call it? What's the big idea? What do I really want to do? And, once it, once you got that, then it was like, ah, that kind of frames everything moving forward and made the big difference. It's awesome. Yeah. I totally resonate. And I'll just tell, I haven't disclosed this to a lot of people, but I was originally going to call the book. Talent ish.

Brandon Triola (07:56.238)
Yeah.

Brandon Triola (08:00.996)
That's awesome. Yeah, I totally resonate. And I'll just tell, I haven't disclosed this to a of people, but I was originally going to call the book talent-ish instead of talented because from my entire career, I've always felt like I have mediocre talent at best. you see these other creatives and their work out in the world and you're just like, constantly comparing yourself. And for my whole career, I've never felt like I was the most talented.

Paul Povolni (08:09.928)
instead of talented because from my entire career, I've always felt like I have mediocre talent at best. You you, you see these other creatives and their work out in the world and you're just like, you're constantly comparing yourself. And my whole career, I've never felt like I was the most talented and yet I've succeeded in spite of that. And I started to realize four or five years ago, there's like a theme where I would meet these really talented creative people and they would be struggling living paycheck to paycheck. And then I would meet.

Brandon Triola (08:27.608)
Yet I've succeeded in spite of that. And I started to realize four or five years ago, there's like a theme and I would meet these really talented creative people and they would be struggling living paycheck to paycheck. And then I would meet people like me or people that maybe they're not the most talented, but they have these intangible things. have, there's something that they have that some of the talented people don't have. And then how are they still able to be successful? So then it took me down this rabbit trail of studying just some of the most successful creatives and people of all time.

Paul Povolni (08:39.7)
people like me or people that maybe they're not the most talented, but they have these intangible things. have, there's something that they have that some of the talented people don't have. And then how are they still able to be successful? So then it took me down this rabbit trail of studying. some of the most successful creatives and people of all time. And I, I use this analogy a lot of my content, but what I say is Chloe Bryant was not that talented. And I know a lot of basketball fans will get really mad when they hear that.

Brandon Triola (08:57.858)
And I use this analogy a lot in my content, but what I say is, Kobe Bryant was not that talented. And I know a lot of basketball fans will get really mad when they hear that. But what they forget to realize about Kobe was that he was the first one in the gym at 4 a.m. every day. He was the last one to leave the gym every day after everybody was out. And this was how he lived his life. This was how he his entire career. So Kobe actually understood that it was the work that he had to put in that was going to make him great. He wasn't born.

Paul Povolni (09:08.458)
But what they forget to realize about Kobe was that he was the first one in the gym at 4 a.m. Every day. He was the last one to leave the gym every day after everybody was out. And this was how he lived his life. This was how he spent his entire career. So Kobe actually understood that it was the work that he had to put in that was going to make him great. He wasn't born with the innate ability to be who he was. And I started to see that in my own life. And so the book I started writing from this perspective of talent is now come on.

Brandon Triola (09:27.406)
with the innate ability to be who he was. And I started to see that in my own life. so the book I started writing from this perspective of talent is now a It's table stakes to be talented. And what I see happening in the creative services industry is everybody's focusing on getting better at their craft, which you should. But that's table stakes. And now with AI, it's now a commodity. mean, someone that's not even creative can now get access to creative tools. And so.

Paul Povolni (09:38.048)
It's table stakes to be talented. And what I see happening in the creative services industry is everybody's focused on getting better at their craft, which you should. But that's table stakes. And now with AI, it's now a commodity. mean, someone that's not even creative can now get access to creative tools. And so I started writing it from that perspective. And so when the editor was like, hey, we should change the title, it made total sense.

Brandon Triola (09:56.994)
I started writing it from that perspective. so when the, when the editor was like, Hey, we should change the title. It made total sense. And I was like, my gosh, that's such a better title. It told it, you know, it's a phrase that people can rally around. And so it was, it really was like a head smack moment. And I'm glad I didn't call it talent-ish because I didn't looking back, it doesn't capture the essence of what the book's trying to equip people with.

Paul Povolni (10:04.32)
And I was like, my gosh, that's such a better title. It's a phrase that people can rally around. It really was like a head smack moment. And I'm glad I didn't call it talent-ish because looking back, doesn't capture the essence of what the book's trying to equip people with. Right, right. Okay. So you mentioned that you felt like a mediocre creative. So what I usually like to do even with the podcast and starting it off is I kind want to hear a little bit about your backstory, a little bit about your origin story.

how you can go as far back as you want. Uh, but just share a little bit about your origin story. Yeah, that's awesome. My origin story starts at the kitchen table. My dad was a mechanical engineer. He's a brilliant, brilliant professional. He just retired a couple of years ago, but I remember being three or four years old and this was before people would have computers at their home, right? This is 1991. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe 92.

Brandon Triola (10:39.064)
Yeah, that's awesome. My origin story starts at the kitchen table. My dad was a mechanical engineer. He's a brilliant, brilliant professional. He just retired a couple of years ago, but I remember being three or four years old. And this was before people would have computers at their home, right? This is 1991, maybe 92. And now you buy paper, right? Nobody bought computer paper because nobody had a computer. And so he would bring home.

Paul Povolni (11:00.48)
And now you buy paper, right? Nobody bought computer paper because nobody had a computer. And so he would bring home sheets of paper from the office that had technical drawings of bearings and wheels and brakes on them. He worked for a major aerospace corporation and we would draw on the backside where they were going to table. And we would draw Ninja Turtles and we would draw this S from Superman and we would draw the Batman symbol. We would draw super heroes.

Brandon Triola (11:06.56)
sheets of paper from the office that had technical drawings of bearings and wheels and brakes on them. He worked for a major aerospace corporation and we would draw on the backside where they were bunked. We would sit at the table and we would draw ninja turtles and we would draw the S from Superman and we would draw the Batman symbol and we would draw superheroes. And I became, I just became obsessed with art, with art, with drawing. And I've always been creative naturally.

Paul Povolni (11:28.178)
I became, I just became obsessed with art, with art, drawing. And I've always been creative naturally. I was never really good at math or anything like that, but it was actually my dad that saw that and nurtured and encouraged that creative element in all of us as kids and believed in us. so what really all took off was 15 years old in high school. I'm obsessed with basketball.

Brandon Triola (11:35.638)
I was never really good at math or anything like that, but it was actually my dad that saw that and nurtured and encouraged that creative element in all of us as kids and believed in us. so where it really all took off was 15 years old in high school. I'm obsessed with basketball. There's a magazine, there's a major basketball magazine to this day, it's called Slam Magazine. For any of the hoopers listening to this, everybody knows Slam Magazine. It's the vogue of basketball.

Paul Povolni (11:55.68)
There's a magazine, there's a major basketball magazine to this day. It's called slam magazine for any of the Hoopers listening to this. Everybody knows slam magazine. It's the vogue of basketball and every single issue opens and starts with a table of contents. And growing up, there was always a really cool illustration. It was some artist or somebody would put something in there and the magazine feature it. And it was a basketball player. would be like a shoe.

Brandon Triola (12:05.972)
And every single issue opens and starts with a table of contents. And growing up, there was always a really cool illustration. It was some artist or somebody would put something in there and the magazine would feature it. And it was a basketball player. would be like a shoe. And I thought that was the coolest part of the magazine. So every issue I would beg my mom, can I get a copy? It was five or six bucks at the time with early 2000s. That's a lot of money. She would always get me a copy.

Paul Povolni (12:22.932)
And I thought that was part of the magazine. So every issue I would beg my mom, can I get a copy? was five or six bucks at the time, really two thousand, that's a lot of money. She would always get me a copy. I would open it, I would look at that illustration, then I would go try to draw it and it just read my soul. And so I remember growing up Northeast Ohio, LeBron James, about to enter the NBA draft. Everybody thought he was going to get drafted by the Cavs, but we weren't sure. We were hoping for it where I grew up.

Brandon Triola (12:33.656)
I would open, I would look at that illustration, then I would go try to draw it and it just read my soul. so I remember growing up Northeast Ohio, LeBron James was about to enter the NBA draft. Everybody thought he was going to get drafted by the Cavs, but we weren't sure. We were hoping for it where I grew up. Well, I had been watching him play in high school and we would go to games because I grew up 10 minutes from LeBron. I was selfish. And so I drew this caricature.

Paul Povolni (12:52.084)
Well, I had been watching him play in high school and we would go to games because I grew up 10 minutes from LeBron. was so. And so I drew this caricature and I can send you a still shot of it if you want to put it on the video. I drew this like detailed caricature illustration of LeBron with the crown and said, King James. And he had like a scepter and a calves jersey. And I thought it was the coolest thing. And it was my dad that came to me and said, Hey, why don't you send that into the magazine?

Brandon Triola (13:02.746)
And I can send you a still shot of it if you want to put it on the video. I drew this like detailed caricature illustration of LeBron with the crown and said, King James. And he had like a scepter in a calves Jersey. And I thought it was the coolest thing. And it was my dad that came to me and said, Hey, why don't you send that into the magazine? I was like, what? I'm 16. Like I can't do that. And he was like, why not? said, can you find, can you locate the address for the publishing house that publishes the magazine?

Paul Povolni (13:21.44)
Like what? Oh, I can't do that. And he was like, why not? Is it, you find, can you locate the address for the, for the publishing house that publishes the magazine? Sure. Flip the magazine over. Look, I'm a fine print. I found it. Sure enough. I don't remember where it was, but I found the address. I went to the grocery store because we didn't have a photo copier and I put it in the scanner because the Brian Eagle or the IGA or whatever had like a section where you could do that.

Brandon Triola (13:33.09)
Sure. Flip the magazine over, look on the fine print. I found it. Sure enough, I don't remember where it was, but I found the address. I went to the grocery store because we didn't have a photocopier and I put it in the scanner because the Dine Eagle or the IGA or whatever had like a section where you could do that. I put the original in, I make a copy because my dad was like, don't send the original. They might not give it back. I make a copy of this illustration. I write a letter out to Stan magazine. Hey, my name's

Paul Povolni (13:50.379)
put the original in, I make a copy because my dad is like, don't send the original. They might not give it back. I make a copy of this illustration. I write a letter out to Slam Magazine. Hey, my name is Brandon Triola. I'm 16 years old. I'm a massive fan. Please publish this. I would love it if you guys would do this in your magazine. I'm not asking for money. And I enveloped it, sealed it and sent it off. A week goes by, a month, next issue, nothing. Another month, next issue, nothing. But then...

Brandon Triola (14:01.53)
Brandon Triola, I'm 16 years old, I'm a massive fan. Please publish this. I would love it if you guys would do this in your magazine. I'm not asking for money. And I enveloped it, sealed it and sent it off. A week goes by, a month, next issue, nothing. Another month, next issue, nothing. But then, the October issue of Slam Magazine. You can look this up, has Carmelo Anthony on the cover. He's got a Denver Nuggets jersey. Never forget, going to the grocery store, going to the aisle, opening it.

Paul Povolni (14:20.286)
the October

Brandon Triola (14:31.748)
flipping that cover open and on the inside, there's my illustration of LeBron James featured in the magazine. And that when I tell you that it was like a line of cocaine as a creative person, I was addicted at that point. And I decided I want to be creative for the rest of my life. And I didn't even know at the time you could get paid for this. So that was like a moment of ignition for me. And it just...

Paul Povolni (14:49.924)
I want to be creative for the rest of my life. And then I didn't even know at the time you could get paid for this. So that was like a moment of ignition for me. And it just sparked something in my soul that, my gosh, like that was really easy. I just asked and they put this in there and I could do that. That's where it all started for me. There's other moments that I talk about in the book of realizing that I can actually get paid for being creative. Because when I was coming out of high school in 2005,

Brandon Triola (15:00.154)
spark something in my soul that, my gosh, like that was really easy. I just asked and they put this in there and I could do, that's where it all started for me. There's other moments that I talk about in the book of realizing that I can actually get paid for being creative because when I was coming out of high school in 2005, if you said to anyone you wanted to be like a graphic designer or something like that, or a writer, they would laugh. That was like not a thing you could make money doing. And then the gig economy sort of erupted.

Paul Povolni (15:19.296)
If you said to anyone you wanted to be like a graphic designer or something like that, or a writer, they would laugh. That was like not a thing you could make money doing. And then the gig economy sort of erupted 2009, 2010. And then Adobe makes Creative Cloud and started to democratize the usage of these tools. so I feel like I'm here for such a time as this, but that's kind of my origin story. And that's why I'm so encouraging to creatives because for me, it's always taken people believing in me.

Brandon Triola (15:29.242)
2009, 2010, and then Adobe makes Creative Cloud and started to democratize the usage of these tools. And so I feel like I'm here for such a time as this, but that's kind of my origin story. And that's why I'm so encouraging to creatives because for me, it's always taken people believing in me to get to that point where I'm actually doing things that I feel like are making impact.

Paul Povolni (15:48.245)
to get to that point where I'm actually doing things that I feel like are making impact. Yeah, man, that's such a great story. That's amazing. Yeah, I remember one of the first times that I was publicly validated for my creativity because I never thought it was anything and I'm not that good at drawing things. Like I'm not that great of an artist. Like I am average to

below average. I'm really not that great. know, so, so for me, you know, when I was in high school, I went to an all boys high school. So there weren't a whole lot of kids that drew like they were all preparing to be a tradie, you know, they were all preparing to go into some trade. But I remember we had a famous cartoonist that did caricatures and stuff come to our school. And he was doing the caricatures of stuff and, and, and then they said, well, we have a creative

Brandon Triola (16:11.546)
That's how I feel. Honestly.

Brandon Triola (16:24.271)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (16:39.998)
guy here, you know, Paul, Paul, why don't you come up here? And, and so he drew a caricature of me. They said, okay, Paul, you draw a caricature of him. And I was like, I've never done a caricature in my life. But you know, suddenly, the whole school was there, like looking at me. And so I kind of winged it and just came up with something. But for me, that was a moment that like validated my creativity and showed me that it is something to be celebrated. It is something that I could possibly make a living out of.

I still didn't know what that meant. know, I wasn't graphic art wasn't on my radar, you know, or communication. What do they call it? Graphic communication, you know, like that wasn't on my radar. I didn't know that that existed. Like maybe I saw it on Bewitched you know, the whole marketing type thing, but I didn't know there was a, an industry of that. Like I just.

Brandon Triola (17:11.875)
Yeah.

Brandon Triola (17:25.476)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (17:31.585)
I guess I was just super ignorant. I don't feel like for me, I really resonated that I don't feel like I knew myself enough when I was younger to know that maybe that's where I wanted to aim my skillset. Like for example, we had a marketing class. was like an elective class that I could have taken in high school and I was like marketing, aim. Yeah. back, I'm like, Oh my God, we would have got A's in this. Like why didn't I want to do this? So I feel like for a lot of young people, that's probably normal. But for creative people, there's stuff like that. And you know, we just don't know some

Brandon Triola (17:32.602)
And I don't feel like for me, I really resonated that I don't feel like I knew myself enough when I was younger to know that maybe that's where I wanted to aim my skillset. Like for example, we had a marketing class. was like an elective class that I could have taken in high school and I was like marketing aim. Looking back, I'm like, my gosh, I would have got A's in this. Like why didn't I want to do this? I feel like for a lot of young people, that's probably normal, but for creative people, there's stuff like that. And you know, where we just don't know sometimes where we want to aim ourselves.

Paul Povolni (18:00.737)
times where we want to aim ourselves. Right. Right. And for me, because I couldn't draw that well, like there was, there was other kids in school and primary school and whatever that, you know, they could draw like really well and it was really realistic. And I was like, well, I'm super creative. Like I love creative thinking. love creative problem solving. love creativity. I love the arts. love drama and acting and all of that and film. but where does somebody like me fit in? And it wasn't until I discovered

Brandon Triola (18:13.114)
Mmm.

Brandon Triola (18:24.57)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (18:30.667)
graphic design when I went on kind of a work experience thing at a studio that one of the teachers had set up. And I saw that, as a graphic artist, you can use other people's drawings and you could use other people's photography. You just need to put it in a way that, put it together in a way that looks good. And for me, that was a head smack, you know, as far as what the opportunities were out there for a kid that is not super talented in one area, but you can augment.

Brandon Triola (18:42.712)
Yeah.

Brandon Triola (18:50.5)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (18:58.113)
what you are good at with people that are good at those areas. People give that there's a lot of people right now that are mad at Adobe. I feel like a lot of creatives, you're in one of two camps, right? Either you're a sellout if you use AI or like it's awesome and you're all in on it. And I, I'm not going to, you know, subscribe to a side. think that there's some unethical things happening. I think that the models that AI is training on without permission, like I don't think that's right. And I think we're about to see.

Brandon Triola (19:01.252)
people give that there's a lot of people right now that are mad at Adobe that I feel like a lot of creatives you're in one of two camps, right? Either you're a sellout if you use AI or like it's awesome and you're all in on it. And I, I'm not going to, you know, subscribe to a side. think that there's some unethical things happening. I think that the models that AI is training on without permission, like, I don't think that's right. And I think we're about to see a whole.

Paul Povolni (19:28.385)
A whole introduction of regulatory things happen in the next five years that most of us are not ready for yet. However, I do believe that AI also is the future and that creatives that aren't catching onto it or getting on the wave at all, like you're cooked. feel like we don't have to talk about that a lot today. can, but I was, what I was going to say about Adobe was

Brandon Triola (19:29.306)
introduction of regulatory things happen in the next five years that most of us are not ready for yet. However, I do believe that AI also is the future and that creatives that aren't catching onto it or getting on the wave at all, like you're cooked, I feel like. we don't have to talk about that a lot today. can, but what I was going to say about Adobe was it was a friend giving me an old laptop in like 2006 and he had a copy of Photoshop on this laptop.

Paul Povolni (19:50.995)
It was a friend giving me an old laptop in like 2006 and let it, had a copy of Photoshop on this laptop. And I started playing around and he had these brushes. So for those of you that know Photoshop, you can get preset brushes that are like images and it's like a stamp. Then had all these weird images. And I remember sitting there and like making these collages and I was like, my gosh, this is the coolest thing. What if I put this on a shirt? But then I, you go to Google and you grab a JPEG of a shirt and you put it on there and then

Brandon Triola (19:58.97)
And I started playing around and he had these brushes. So for those of you that know Photoshop, you can get preset brushes that are like images and it's like a stamp. Then he had all these weird images. And I remember sitting there and like making these collages. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is the coolest thing. What if I put this on a shirt? So then you go to Google and you grab a JPEG of a shirt and you put it on there and then you put it in Photoshop and you stamp your image on there. Designing t-shirts, just messing around.

Paul Povolni (20:20.555)
put it in Photoshop and you stamp your image on there. Designing t-shirts and messing around. Well, it was a friend who was older who was a graphic designer for a living and he saw some of the stuff I was doing. He goes, Hey, you're really good. He goes, you could probably get paid to do this. And I was like, yeah, right. And he goes, no, like really, I think so. goes, Hey, I have a connection to this, to this major bands, this group of bands. don't know if you've heard of it. It's called Warped Tour, which was major.

Brandon Triola (20:25.39)
Well, it was a friend who was older, who was a graphic designer for a living. And he saw some of the stuff I was doing. He goes, Hey, you're really good. He goes, you could probably get paid to do this. And I was like, yeah, right. And he goes, no, like really, I think so. goes, Hey, I have a connection to this, to this major bands, this group of bands. don't know if you've heard of it. It's called Warped Tour, which was major. All the top bands in the world. goes, yeah, I know that the merch director.

Paul Povolni (20:49.369)
Wow. All the top bands in the world. goes, yeah, I know that the merch director, I'm always designing shirts for them. He goes, why don't you let me submit a couple of designs for you and we'll see what happened. And I was like, you would do that for me. He was like, yeah. So he walked me in. He was what I call a door person. I talk about this in my book. Yeah. So I did a bunch of designs for this band and sent them to him. This is a really funny story. He's going tell you how, how inexperienced I was, also how amazing people are.

Brandon Triola (20:53.944)
I'm always designing shirts for them. goes, why don't you let me submit a couple of designs for you and we'll see what happened. And I was like, you would do that for me? He was like, yeah. So he walked me in. He was what I call a door person. I talk about this in my book. So I did a bunch of designs for this band and sent them to him. This is a really funny story. He's going tell you how, how inexperienced I was, but also how amazing people are. Sure enough, he emails me back a couple of days later. goes,

Paul Povolni (21:18.785)
Yeah. Sure enough emails me back a couple days later. goes, I sent like six or seven. goes, they chose two of your designs. You're going to get $125 per design. I 250. It was the most money I ever seen in my life at that time. 2007 at the time. Yeah. And I, I thought I, you thought I was hooked before at that point, was like, is real. Now the funny thing is he goes, yes, send me the vector art. Oh no.

Brandon Triola (21:21.786)
I sent like six or seven because they chose two of your designs. You're gonna get a hundred and twenty five dollars per design. I made 250 is the most money I ever seen in my life at that time 2007 at the time and I thought I was hooked before at that point. was like What this is real? Now the funny thing is he goes yes, send me the vector art

And was like, what? Yeah. Send me the layered vector art so that they can print them. And I was like, I'm Googling what is vector art, right? He had to recreate all my artwork and separate the colors out because I didn't know how to do it. And it was so funny. I ended up giving him like 50 bucks from all that money or whatever, but like, I knew nothing. But to that point, these tools.

Paul Povolni (21:47.827)
I was like, what? Yes. Send me the layered vector art so that they can print them. And I was like, I'm Googling what is back. He had to recreate all my artwork and separate the colors out because I didn't know how to do it. And it was so funny. I didn't have to do it in like 50 bucks from all that money or whatever, but like, I knew nothing. But at that point, these tools.

Brandon Triola (22:14.362)
sort of illuminated a path for me of what could be possible. And then obviously I had to learn, you know, color separation, fact, your artwork and all of that. But I'm thankful to these schools like Adobe and you know, all of them, right? You can lump Figma and Canva and all these things in there. These tools are what had taken something where there was a barrier where you had to have a lot of money and a lot of experience to get in the game. And what they did was they shortened the barrier. I call it like this value gap.

Paul Povolni (22:14.709)
sort of illuminated a path for me of what could be possible. And then obviously I had to learn, you know, color separation, in fact, your artwork and all of that, but I'm thankful to these schools like Adobe and you know, all of them, right? You can, you can lump Figma and all these things in there. These, these tools are what had taken something where there was a barrier where you had to have a lot of money and a lot of experience to get it in the game. And what they did was they shortened the barrier. It's I call it like this value gap.

Brandon Triola (22:44.602)
And they've taken it and they've gone like this and they've, yeah, they've democratized them. And yet people that aren't talented can get ahold of them and make bad things or things that aren't good. But also it's democratized this being creative for a living for people who maybe aren't going to be a template, who maybe aren't going to be a nurse, who maybe aren't going to be a teacher. They're not going to be an aerospace engineer. And so I'm thankful to these tools, to these brands for building these tools for people like us.

Paul Povolni (22:44.961)
And they've taken it and they've gone like this and they've, yeah, they've democratized them. And yet people that aren't talented can get ahold of them and make bad things or things that aren't good. But also it's democratized this being creative for a living for people who maybe aren't going to be a template, who maybe aren't going to be nurse, who maybe aren't going to be a teacher. They're not going to be in real space. And so I'm thankful to these tools, to these brands for building these tools for people like us.

Right. Well, and there are, there are tools that even a beyond Adobe that are kind of getting into the fray. know Apple has made announcements about, you know, toolbox that they're creating. you know, with like you mentioned already, Canva, I've seen a lot of great artists using procreate, to create amazing things. And then, you know, what's interesting is kind of when I got into the industry, I'm significantly older than you.

Brandon Triola (23:21.476)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brandon Triola (23:27.81)
I love Procreate.

Paul Povolni (23:35.385)
you know, it was using quark express, you had to use quark express and, you had to know how to output files, you know, the right way. And if you didn't output them the right way to the printer, the printer would be like, absolutely not. This is wrong. You know, redo it kind of thing. Whereas I think now even the printing industry has adapted to the naivety of some of the people that are creating stuff. And so they're, they're adapting to, okay, we got this kind of a file.

Brandon Triola (23:38.178)
Yes, I remember! CorelDraw?

Brandon Triola (23:49.945)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (24:04.785)
Yes, we can output it for you on a t-shirt or we can output it on whatever Because they're realizing like you had mentioned the barrier of entry into creating Creative works and getting it out there has has shortened and there is there is no barrier anymore and so the the output the people that output the creative have needed to adjust right? Yeah, and a really good example of what you're saying is Amazon. So a lot of people still don't know this but

Brandon Triola (24:28.248)
Yeah, a really good example of what you're saying is Amazon. So a lot of people still don't know this, but you can take a photo on your iPhone. just say you're at the beach with your spouse or your kids. You can take a photo of them or the beach. You can go to Amazon and upload that photo and have it printed out onto a canvas. And they will ship it to you, but they know the parameters. And so it's got to be a certain resolution, but it's like, they know that people are going to use it this way. So they had to make it dumb proof.

Paul Povolni (24:33.409)
You can take a photo on your iPhone. just say you're at the beach with your spouse or your kids. You can take a photo of them or the beach. You can go to Amazon and upload that photo and have it printed out onto a canvas. And they will ship it to you, but they know the parameters. And so it's gotta be a certain resolution, but it's like, they know that people are going to use it this way. So they had to make it dumb proof. Yeah. In the day there were these platforms and if you wanted to have a, if you wanted to print something,

Brandon Triola (24:56.442)
But you remember back in the day there were these platforms and if you wanted to have a, if you wanted to print something like a custom artwork on a canvas or even a print, you had to have, you know, it had to be CMYK formatted and it had to be 300 DPI and all these things. Well, now Amazon is just like, they've made it possible to do that with a click from your iPhone. I mean, it's astonishing where we started and how this gap has just shortened so that literally anybody can be creative. And this is what I'm trying to tell creative people.

Paul Povolni (25:02.741)
Like a custom artwork on a canvas or even a print, had to have, you know, it had to be CMYK formatted and had to 300 DPI and all these things. Well now Amazon is just like, made it possible to do that with a click from your iPhone. I mean, it's astonishing where we started and how this gap has just shortened so that literally anybody can be creative. And this is what I'm trying to tell creative people. Anybody can learn to use the tools. Like somebody right now.

Brandon Triola (25:25.242)
Anybody can learn to use the tools. Like somebody right now go and download a free version of Canva. And by the end of the day, they can be making money selling their artwork. And that's awesome. But also that's scary because now the talent gap has shortened. And so now it doesn't require years and years. It doesn't require. We had to pay like $1,800 in Photoshop came on a disk People remember that like only if you could afford. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (25:30.943)
go and download a free version of Canva. And by the end of the day, they can be making money selling their artwork. Yeah, yeah. And that's awesome. But also that's scary because now the talent gap has shortened. And so now it doesn't require years and years. It doesn't require. We had to pay like $1800 and Photoshop came on a dip. Right, right. We had to load it with like five CDs or whatever. You either had to steal it and rip it offline or you had to have enough money to get it.

Brandon Triola (25:53.956)
So you either had to steal it and rip it offline or you had to have enough money to get it. But AI has now taken this shortened gap and they've almost obliterated it. That gap is now like a thin line that anybody can create. And so what I'm trying to get through to creative people is your talent is being commoditized. And if you focus on just the creative work, you're, only going to get harder to stand out. You have to focus on the other things that separate you from anybody using the tool.

Paul Povolni (25:58.731)
But AI has now taken this shortened gap and they've almost obliterated. That gap is now like a thin line that anybody can create. And so what I'm trying to get through to creative people is your talent is being commoditized. And if you focus on just the creative work, you're, only going to get harder to stand out. You have to focus on the other things that separate you from anybody using the tool or from the tool. And the good news is those are things that anybody can learn back to the word talent.

Brandon Triola (26:22.488)
or from the tool and the good news is those are things that anybody can learn back to the word talent. You don't have to be talented to do or become any of the things that make you successful as a creator.

Paul Povolni (26:28.083)
You don't have to be talented to do or become any of the things that make you successful as a creative. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you've mentioned Adobe quite a few times and, and your, your feelings about Adobe, kind of have a love hate, relationship with where they're at right now, because I feel that they've created tools to replace the people that brought them to where they're at, you know? And so, you know, I can now use.

Brandon Triola (26:42.35)
Sure.

Brandon Triola (26:51.459)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (26:54.729)
Photoshop to create things that I once would have had to hire somebody who knew how to use Photoshop to create those things. Or I can create things in Illustrator that once I would need to hire an Illustrator to create those very things. Whereas now Illustrator creates it right within the tool. And so that kind of almost feels like a betrayal in some ways for me, because instead of now having to hire an Illustrator to create an illustration in the style of whatever, I can just type it in.

And I can get something really, really good. And now that Illustrator doesn't have a source of income that Illustrator is no longer an option because I don't need them. so Adobe created these tools to replace the very people that brought them success. And so that's where kind of my love hate is with that. But I also love the tools and I've used the AI tools within, you know, within the Adobe products. And so that does kind of change, I think for a lot of maybe old school.

Brandon Triola (27:39.416)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (27:51.637)
designers, people that have been around and, seeing the evolution of it because they're like, man, you know, now people are no longer needing me because AI is kind of taking its place. Yeah. I love that. And I actually agree with you and I'll play devil's advocate. It's always been hard to make money as an illustrator. mean, you've all, you've, if you want to make a career out of an illustrator and sell your illustrations to the New York times and become an editorial illustrator. mean, it's always been, you can't just be anybody and do it.

Brandon Triola (28:01.582)
Yeah, I love that. And I actually agree with you and I'll play devil's advocate. It's always been hard to make money as an illustrator. mean, you've all, you've, if you want to make a career out of an illustrator and sell your illustrations to the New York times and become an editorial illustrator. mean, it's always been done. You can't just be anybody and do it. If, if you stake your career on being an illustrator and you just, and you haven't evolved at all or expanded your skillset, that's a whole nother conversation. Like.

Paul Povolni (28:20.833)
If you staked your career on being an illustrator, you just, and you haven't evolved at all or expanded your skillset. That's a whole nother conversation. Like that was hard before AI. So it's almost like it's too late to complain a little bit. So what I think creative people need to understand is this is not a, this is a moment where you can get mad and you can slam your fist down, or this is a moment where you can take the opportunity to learn and evolve and change and yourself a little bit.

Brandon Triola (28:30.68)
That was hard before AI. it's almost like it's too late to complain a little bit. So what I think creative people need to understand is this is not a moment. This is a moment where you can get mad and you can slam your fist down, or this is a moment where you can take the opportunity to learn and evolve and change and reflect yourself a little bit. If you follow any successful person in history, they all follow this one thing. And the one thing is they know when and how to reinvent themselves and they've all reinvented themselves.

Paul Povolni (28:50.609)
If you follow any successful person in history, they all follow this one thing. And the one thing is they know when and how to reinvent themselves. And they've all reinvented themselves. Sometimes they reinvent themselves and go back to what they were. But we are evolving creatures. And what I get frustrated is when I see creative person, it's like, nope, I'm one thing. I'm a photographer and I'm just going to take photos forever. And that's it. What if you learned how to operate a video camera? What if you learned art direction or creative direction and you can go be strategic mind on major film set?

Brandon Triola (28:59.812)
Sometimes they reinvent themselves and go back to what they were. But we are evolving creatures. And what I get frustrated is when I see creative person, it's like, no, I'm one thing. I'm a photographer and I'm just going to take photos forever and that's it. What if you learned how to operate a video camera? What if you learned art direction or creative direction and you can go be strategic mind on major film set? What if you took the course field that you had and you just expanded it? And so when I see a creative person that's totally resistant.

Paul Povolni (29:20.597)
What if you took the core skill that you had and you just expanded it? And so when I see a creative person that's totally resistant, I see a person who's being antithetical to what they are because we are by nature creative. We are, which is what we are in iteration who loves to iterate. We are good at iterating and finding and expanding and changing and morphing and evolving. So artificial intelligence is introducing a moment for us to step into this with curiosity. And I'm not saying bow to the tool.

Brandon Triola (29:27.332)
I see a person who's being antithetical to what they are because we are by nature creative. We are, which is what? We are in iteration who loves to iterate. We are good at iterating and finding and expanding and changing and morphing and evolving. So artificial intelligence is introducing a moment for us to step into this with curiosity. And I'm not saying bow to the tool. I'm not saying sacrifice yourself on the altar of technology. I'm saying use this and take advantage of this moment.

Paul Povolni (29:50.471)
I'm not saying sacrifice yourself on the altar of technology. I'm saying use this and take advantage of this moment to change and expand and learn. And one of the chapters of my book, which is amazing because a lot of this book, the stuff that other people taught me, talks about this course, this core skill called cross-functional keys. It's one of the core keys of the book.

Brandon Triola (29:57.038)
to change and expand and learn. And one of the chapters in my book, which is amazing because a lot of this book, the stuff that other people taught me, talks about this core skill called cross-functional keys. It's one of the core keys of the book. So when I was at this coaching thing back in 2018, and I was learning from this guy that was an executive at Walmart and Disney, a former executive. And he said something during his talk that it was like a breadcrumb for me.

Paul Povolni (30:14.241)
So when I was, I was at this coaching thing back in 2018 and I was learning from this guy that was an executive at Walmart and Disney, former executive, and he said something during his talk that it was like a breadcrumb for me. He's like, yeah, I didn't really go to a good school. went to a small school and then he just kind of brushed over it. But I came back to that and I was like, Hey, earlier in your talk, you said that you kind of just went to a small school. You didn't really start off with the silver spoon. How did you scale the executive level of Walmart and Disney?

Brandon Triola (30:26.586)
He's like, yeah, I didn't really go to a good school, but I went to a small school. And then he just kind of brushed over it, but I came back to that and I was like, Hey, earlier in your talk, you said that you kind of just went to a small school. You didn't really start off with the silver spoon. How did you scale the executive level of Walmart and Disney? said, that's really interesting. You asked that because there's two things, two things that I did. I invested in building a tool belt across functional skills and certifications.

Paul Povolni (30:43.369)
He said, that's really interesting you asked that he goes there's two things two things that I did I invested in building a tool belt of cross functional skills and certifications and at this moment in my career It was a light bulb moment for me because I felt like I was bumping into a ceiling And so what that illuminated was my gosh If you want to be abundantly successful you actually have to expand and you have to develop cross-functional skills because that's what increases

Brandon Triola (30:54.862)
And at this moment in my career, it was a light bulb moment for me because I felt like I was bumping into a ceiling. And so what that illuminated was, my gosh, if you want to be abundantly successful, you actually have to expand and you have to develop cross-functional skills because that's what increases your value in the marketplace. So after that, I started learning brand strategy. started learning marketing strategy. started not transforming totally into those things, but learning those skills.

Paul Povolni (31:11.167)
your value in the marketplace. Right. After that, I started learning brand strategy. I started learning marketing strategy. I started not transforming totally into those things, but learning those skills. And so what AI is doing in this moment is it's illuminating this opportunity for creative people to be able to easily learn these cross-functional skills. Right. Where before it took lots of time, but now you can use AI to teach you things that make you more valuable to the market than if you

Brandon Triola (31:21.978)
And so what AI is doing in this moment is it's illuminating this opportunity for creative people to be able to easily learn these cross-functional skills, where before it took lots of time, but now you can use AI to teach you things that make you more valuable to the market than if you continue to just stay a one-dimensional, know, insert whatever skill you want to be. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (31:39.263)
Continue to just stay a one dimensional, whatever, you know, insert whatever skill you want to be. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I know you mentioned you're playing devil's advocate, but I totally agree with that side of it. You know, while I am angry at it, it's just part of evolution. It's just part of, you know, technology. You know, there's a lot of disciplines within the creative arts that are gone by the wayside because of how tools have changed things. You know, there's when I came into the, this

industry, there's a lot of people that were used for pre press and for getting proofs ready for you to look at, you know, of your designs once they were outputted and all of that stuff that they had to evolve in what they were doing. And so I think creatives, you're right in that creatives need to learn how to augment what they're doing with AI or else they'll get they'll fall by the wayside. And if you're an illustrator, you've got to

you know, you might be hot right now. Like I have a friend who's an illustrator and you know, he's done work for Nike and the biggest, biggest companies out there. he, well, but the thing, but here it is, but here's the thing. He was hot for a time and he was getting nonstop work, but then he saturated the market and they were like, well, that's all you do, but we kind of want something different. And so suddenly he was

Brandon Triola (32:47.278)
He's not getting replaced.

Paul Povolni (33:04.949)
famous, but he wasn't rich and famous. He was just famous. And so because he didn't change his styles, he didn't adapt. He didn't evolve. he kind of got into this place where he's like, dude, I am struggling right now. Like I can't get any work. And there was a time when he was in every publication, design publication and all of that stuff. And he's like, I can't get work right now. Like I'm really struggling because he didn't evolve. And because he was, he had a certain style that did all the time.

Brandon Triola (33:07.066)
Exactly.

Paul Povolni (33:32.509)
And he evolved eventually and then there was a fresh getting busy and nonstop business. But I think that's where AI can help you is you need to augment what you do really, really well and find a way to bring AI into it because that'll change because everybody's had to adapt. And I had one illustrator when I was an art director that he would submit artwork that he had airbrushed.

like old school airbrushed and I told him, said, dude, you've got to do this stuff in Photoshop. He's like, well, I've never used Photoshop. Like I've been, and his stuff is another artist, a different one, but his stuff has appeared in every major publication and, graphic design as well as, you know, newsweek time, stuff like that. And, but he was like, I've never done stuff in Photoshop. And I forced him because I'm like, I need this project in Photoshop. So you got to learn Photoshop.

Brandon Triola (33:58.362)
Hmm.

Brandon Triola (34:16.154)
It's amazing.

Brandon Triola (34:25.444)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (34:25.799)
And he did, and now that's all he does. And he's like evolved and now he's like super busy doing all kinds of stuff. And he's like, man, if it wasn't for that project, wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now at the rate I am and how I am. And so another case of, you know, augmenting with new technology, what you've always done to make you better. And imagine had he not had you to speak up. Yeah. I mean, I, I deal with this every week and it's so funny because there's this whole conversation happening around AI, but.

Brandon Triola (34:44.024)
And imagine had he not had you to speak up. I mean, I deal with this every week and it's so funny because there's this whole conversation happening around AI, but I feel like most creative professionals are still behind with some of these other things. I I talked to a team yesterday, they're designing slides in Adobe Illustrator. I said, do you realize slide decks to present to their clients is an agency. And I said, do you realize how much time this is costing you and how much money?

Paul Povolni (34:54.495)
I feel like most creative professionals are still behind with some of these other things. I I talked to a team yesterday, they're designing slides in Adobe illustrate. I said, do you realize slide decks to present to their clients is an agency. And I said, do you realize how much time this is costing you and how much money, why are you not using Google slides? Why are you not using Sigma to collaborate Nero? mean, there's take your tool. I I'm advocating one over the other.

Brandon Triola (35:12.984)
Why are you not using Google slides? Why are you not using Figma to collaborate? Nero, mean, this, your tool. I mean, I'm not advocating one over the other. They're not even using the cloud-based version where people can go in and see and comment. Like I'm just going, why don't we want to evolve? One of the most brilliant brand designers that I know. One of the guys I look, I look up to this guy creatively. He just now started using Figma last week.

Paul Povolni (35:22.177)
They're not even using the cloud-based version where people can go in and see and comment. Like, I'm just going, why don't we want to evolve? One of the most brilliant brand designers that I know. One of the guys I I look up to this quite creatively. He just now started using Figma last week. Wow. And I'm going guys, what is the problem that we have with changing? Why can't we evolve? This is highlighting, this is.

Brandon Triola (35:41.582)
And I'm going guys, what is the problem that we have with changing? Why can't we evolve? This is highlighting, this is highlighting something deeper and that's great. A lot of us are set in our ways. We don't like change. We don't like what's new. We're blaming it on AI. And I just think that kind of childish actually, like this is the time to step in. This is the fourth, fifth industrial revolution, whatever you want to say. And it's all going to be totally different next week again.

Paul Povolni (35:51.777)
highlighting something deeper and that's a lot of us are set in our ways. We don't like change. We don't like what's new. We're blaming it on AI. And I just think that kind of childish actually, like this is the time to step in. This is the fourth, fifth industrial revolution, whatever you want to say. And it's all going to be totally different next week again. So the longer that we all stay resistant, the harder it's only going to be as all of this changes.

Brandon Triola (36:10.906)
So the longer that we all stay resistant, the harder it's only going to be as all of this changes. And what creative people I think need to understand is that there are three kinds of AI that you need to think about because everybody's mad at generative AI. There's only one kind of AI. So when I talk to a creative person and they're mad and they call me an AI spell out or something, I'm like, well, hold on, pump your brakes. You've been using AI in Photoshop for 10 years to do the clone replacement.

Paul Povolni (36:19.231)
And what creative people I think need to understand is that there are three kinds of AI that you need to think about because everybody's mad at generative AI. only one kind of AI. So when I talk to a creative person and they're mad and they call me an AI spell out or something, I'm like, well, hold on, your brakes. You, you've been using AI in Photoshop for 10 years to do the clone replacement. Yeah. Yeah. I say, you ever used that? And then they say, I say you're an AI spell out.

Brandon Triola (36:40.794)
Yeah. I say, you ever used that? And if they say, I say you're an AI, it's not allowed. Like there are tools embedded in our tools that have been using artificial intelligence for a decade. People don't realize that. so there's three kinds of AI. There's generative AI, which yeah, if you have a graphic designer on staff and you fire them and your CEO just wants you to use some chat GPT to crank out crap, that's stupid. But there's also analytical AI. There's AI that helps you think and helps you strategize.

Paul Povolni (36:47.297)
There are tools embedded in our tools that have been using artificial intelligence for a decade. People don't realize that. And so there's three kinds of AI. There's generative AI, which yeah, if you have a graphic designer on staff and you fire them and your CEO just to do some chat GPT to break out crap, that's stupid. But there's also analytical AI. There's AI that helps you think and helps you strategize. And that is actually the AI that I'm trying to get creative people to begin to use.

Brandon Triola (37:09.794)
And that is actually the AI that I'm trying to get creative people to begin to use because it will speed up their process. It'll make them better. It'll make them more efficient. So I think about AI like a ring. I'm actually working on this thing right now called the AI value. And I'll have to share it with you guys when it's done, but AI is like a pizza. And in the middle is the core human thing that you do. that's brand, brand design, photography, videography. And that's, that's the thing that needs the most space. That's the thing that actually AI.

Paul Povolni (37:14.805)
because it will speed up their process. It'll make them better. It'll make them more efficient. So I think about AI like a ring. I'm actually working on this thing right now called the AI value. And I'll have to share it with you guys when it's done. But AI is like a pizza. And in the middle is the core human thing that you do. So that's brand design, photography, videography. And that's the thing that needs the most space. That's the thing that actually AI can't replace yet. It can help with, but it can't replace yet. It's not good enough.

Brandon Triola (37:38.68)
can't replace yet. It can help with, but it can't replace yet. It's not good enough. So the value is lower when you try to use it on the center of the pizza, right? That's where everybody's getting mad and they're going, no, we're against AI. But then there's another layer out around that. And that is the augmentation layer. And that's where you use AI to augment what you do. You use AI to help you do strategy. You use AI to help you do research. You use AI to help you get to 100 bad ideas really fast.

Paul Povolni (37:43.755)
to the value is lower when you try to use it on the center of the pizza, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's where everybody's getting mad. They're going, no, we're against AI. Then there's another layer out around that. And that is the augmentation layer. And that's where you use AI to augment what you do. You use AI to help you do strategy. You use AI to help you do research. You use AI to help you get to a hundred bad ideas really fast. That's how everyone should be using it actually for creative.

Brandon Triola (38:07.3)
is how everyone should be using it actually for creative. But then there's another outer ring of round all of it that's called agentic AI. And agentic AI are what all the tech companies are building to shorten the man hour processes for the manual things that aren't creative. So what creative people need to understand is when you start thinking about AI the right way, we'll think about it as these layers and not all evil in the middle, but actually AI is good. And when you wrap your brain around how it's helping and going to help you do your job better and faster.

Paul Povolni (38:10.261)
Then there's another outer ring of round all of it. That's called a Gentic AI and a Gentic AI or what all the tech companies are building to shorten the man hour processes, the manual things that aren't created. What creative people need to understand is start thinking about AI the right way. We'll think about it as these layers and not all evil in the middle, but actually AI is good. And then you back your brain around how it's helping and going to help you do your job better and faster. makes it easier to go, okay.

Brandon Triola (38:36.972)
It makes it easier to go, okay, I'll step into this with a little bit of curiosity and realize it's not here to replace me. There's actually real opportunity for me to use it to get my work done faster so that I could charge a higher project rate and not be punished for getting paid hourly. You know, maybe not have to hire as a creative business owner, so many people that do manual tasks. Maybe I can just hire really good creatives and all the admin things can be done with the Gentic AI. I mean, this is the reality that we're going to.

Paul Povolni (38:39.605)
I'll step into this with a little bit of curiosity and realize it's not here to replace me. There's actually real opportunity for me to use it to get my work done faster so that I can try to hire project, right? And not be punished for getting paid hourly. You know, maybe not have to hire as a creative business owner, so many people that do manual tasks. Maybe I can just hire really good creatives and all the admin things can be done with the Gentic AI. I mean, this is the reality that we're going to. so to not get a little bit excited about it.

Brandon Triola (39:06.692)
To not get a little bit excited about it, I think is a sign that we've probably been sold a little bit of a lie in the media that AI is just totally evil and it's just here to take over creatives. And I just don't believe that it's the case.

Paul Povolni (39:09.865)
I think is a sign that we've probably been sold a little bit of a lie in the media that AI is just totally evil and it's just here to take over creative. And I just don't believe that it's the case. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think that is the future that, it's unavoidable. And I think this is the, you know, AI really is one of the biggest changes to pretty much all industries.

I used to say since the invention of the internet, but I think it's since the invention of the computer, like it is such a radical shift in how things are done, by so many people. And it's affecting the white collar, know, like we used to talk about, yeah, blue collar, you're going to get replaced by, you know, robots and, and whatever. And, us, us white collar people, you know, that's the kind of job that'll never get replaced, especially creatives, you know, nobody can replace a creative.

It's like, you know, we're at a time where you can get some pretty good stuff. Now it's, the best of average and it's not always, you know, as innovative or, you know, sometimes creative comes out of mistakes and unique pattern recognition and unique combinations, all of those things that sometimes that the human mind can bring to a project. But still, like if you're okay with average, if you're okay with stuff that is not, you know,

innovative or super different from anything else out there, then you can produce some pretty good stuff. Yeah, it's, really can. I mean, and it can produce a lot of, a lot of bad stuff as well. And that's what most people see online, unfortunately. But, but we have a team and the way that we use it with our team is really interesting. We work with technology clients, global tech companies, big companies. And the other thing that I, that I'm trying to get the gig economy to understand, cause I see it from both sides. I did the freelance, I had a solo brand studio for like,

Brandon Triola (40:35.256)
Yeah, it's, really can. mean, and it can produce a lot of, a lot of bad stuff as well. And that's what most people see online, unfortunately, but, we have a team and the way that we use it with our team is really interesting. work with technology clients, global tech companies, big companies. And the other thing that I, that I'm trying to get the gig economy to understand, because I see it from both sides. I did the freelance, I had a solo brand studio for like almost 10 years before we started Forest. What people have to understand is.

Paul Povolni (40:59.743)
almost 10 years before we started forest. What people have to understand is the market is demanding. use AI. So the companies that hire creative services, they are expecting what they've been spoiled in the media. AI will make everything better, faster, cheaper. Now, whether that's right or whether that's wrong or whether you agree with it or not, that's the fact that will creative people forget because we're emotional and we are.

Brandon Triola (41:04.398)
The market is demanding that we use AI. So the companies that hire creative services, they are expecting what they've been schooled in the media. AI will make everything better, faster, cheaper. Now, whether that's right or whether that's wrong or whether you agree with it or not, that's why the fact that we'll create if people forget because we're emotional and we are deeply connected to our work. There's nothing wrong with that, but we forget.

Paul Povolni (41:28.395)
We're deeply connected to our work. There's nothing wrong with that. we forget is that the market determines the value, not us. Yeah. So the example I use is we do a lot of social media content for our clients. We had a large consultancy as a client. They're a top 10, a billion dollar consulting firm. They were a client of ours for years. They're not anymore. We're still friends with them. But for years we had them as a client, but we would write blog articles for them weekly, monthly, tons of blog articles.

Brandon Triola (41:32.024)
is that the market determines the value, not us. So the example I use is we do a lot of social media content for our clients. We had a large consultancy as a client. They're a top 10, a billion dollar consulting firm. They were a client of ours for years. They're not anymore. We're still friends with them. But for years, we had them as a client. Well, we would write blog articles for them weekly, monthly, tons of blog articles. And we used to charge $200 per article.

Paul Povolni (41:58.913)
And we used to charge $200 per article. Now to write one of these articles requires a writer, a strategist to meet with an SME, a subject matter expert from the consulting team, interview them for one or two hours, extract all the stuff that they think that makes it really valuable and insightful, and then write and turn that into a really valuable SEO ready blog post. This used to be a really heavy lift of a thing. And quite frankly, to write good articles, you still need a good writer.

Brandon Triola (42:02.554)
To write one of these articles requires a writer, a strategist to meet with an SME, a subject matter expert from the consulting team, interview them for one or two hours, extract all the stuff that they think that makes it really valuable and insightful, and then write and turn that into a really valuable SEO ready blog post. This used to be a really heavy lift of a thing. And quite frankly, to write good articles, you still need a good writer. So, but here's the crazy thing that happened.

Paul Povolni (42:28.989)
Yeah. So, but, here's the crazy thing that happened. The day that chat GPT became public and people were able to start using it. was a couple of days after that, we got a call from this client and they were like, yeah, you got to lower the prices on your blogs now. And it just, and it just made something really clear to me. that is, well, we weren't even fully using the tools yet, but the market shifted its expectation and its value.

Brandon Triola (42:32.152)
The day that chat GPT became public and people were able to start using it. was a couple of days after that, we got a call from this client and they were like, yeah, you got to lower the prices on your blogs now. And it just, and it just made something really clear to me. that is, well, we weren't even fully using the tools yet, but the market shifted its expectation and its value based off of what it was hearing and learning and seeing. And to the creative person.

Paul Povolni (42:58.133)
based off of what it was hearing and learning and seeing. But to the creative person, the market demands we use these tools. You don't have the luxury of going, no, not me. I'm against AI. You're going to go, okay, thanks for talking to me. We have to think about having a POV. We have to think about how we're going to be using these. We have to be ready. I have to show my clients how we're using it. They expect it. And also now,

Brandon Triola (43:02.532)
the market demands we use these tools. You don't have the luxury of going, no, not me. I'm against AI. You're going to go, okay, thanks for talking to me. They're going to talk to somebody else. We have to think about having a POV. We have to think about how we're going to be using these. We have to be ready. I have to show my clients how we're using it. They expect it. And also now because we have to use it, it's actually helping us get faster at certain things. And now our writers are using AI.

Paul Povolni (43:25.109)
because we have to use it, it's actually helping us get faster at certain things. And now our writers are using AI. Our designers are using it to concept and mood board and get to a bad idea fast, so that they can use their human skill to make the good idea. And I just think that you, as creatives have to remember and understand that we don't determine the value, the market determines the value. Yeah. Yeah. I remember talking to somebody that was part of a pretty large agency.

Brandon Triola (43:30.498)
Our designers are using it to concept and mood board and get to a bad idea fast, where they can use their human skill to make the good idea. And I just think that you, we as creatives have to remember and understand that we don't determine the value, the market determines the value.

Paul Povolni (43:52.277)
And they said, you know, we had, we had a client meeting and the client, you know, asked us, you know, well, how are you guys using AI? And he said, well, we told them, we're not using AI. You know, we don't use it at all. And I, and I told him, said, dude, that was the wrong answer. That was the wrong answer. You are going to have to use AI and you're going to figure out how you use AI and how you talk about using AI because telling a client that you don't use AI.

Um, like you were saying, it seems like, what are you carving this, you know, with a chisel into stone? Like, what are you doing? You know, you've got to be using it, um, because you're, not serving us the best you can. almost seems like, right. Yeah. And, and, and with that, though, there are moments where we have to say, we're not going to use AI for this. It's not going to be good. do you Yeah. They trust us because they see how we use it. They understand how we think about it.

Brandon Triola (44:34.158)
Yeah. And with that though, there are moments where we have to say, we're not going to use AI for this. It's not going to be good what you get. And they trust us because they see how we use it. They understand how we think about it. And for us, it's a little bit easier, right? Cause our clients are all tech companies. So in the last year and a half, a lot of our clients have come to us and they said, we have to tell our story around AI and they're all pivoting. So maybe they're just selling tech services or maybe they have a tech platform they sell. All of a sudden it has to be AI first.

Paul Povolni (44:45.697)
And for us, it's a little bit easier because our clients are all tech companies. So in the last year and a half, a lot of our clients have come to us and they said, we have to tell our story around AI and they're all pivoting. So maybe they're just selling tech services or maybe they have a tech platform they sell. All of a sudden it has to be AI first now and everything they do has to be AI. Well, they don't know how to do storytelling. They don't know how to build a brand strategy around that. So a lot of our work right now is helping them.

Brandon Triola (45:02.338)
And everything they do has to be AI. Well, they don't know how to do storytelling. They don't know how to build a brand strategy around that. So a lot of our work right now is helping them create, articulate, find, and come up with what is that strategic narrative for their business around AI? Well, if we don't have a POV on AI and we're against it, why would they hire us to help them tell their story with it? So I say that two ways. It's a little easier for us because we're in the market where AI is in high demand.

Paul Povolni (45:11.745)
create, articulate, find and come up with what is that strategic narrative for their business around AI? Well, if we don't have a POV on AI and we're against it, why would they hire us to help them tell their story with it? So I say that two ways. It's a little easier for us because we're in the market where AI is in high demand. But also when you look at any industry right now, people are just, they have a changed perspective around creative work and that is, okay, AI is here, it's going to be better, faster, cheaper.

Brandon Triola (45:30.436)
But also when you look at any industry right now, people are just, they have a changed perspective around creative work and that is, okay, AI is here, it's going to be better, faster, cheaper. It's our job to either make that come true for them or teach them and show them, hey, maybe what you want isn't realistic and here's why. Let me help you get what you need.

Paul Povolni (45:41.683)
It's our job to either make that come true for them or teach them and show them, hey, maybe what you want isn't realistic and here's why. Let me help you get what you need. Yeah. Do you think it's also an opportunity for the rise of creative directors, editors, know, people with intuition and instinct and experience that could, you know, that could, that could help AI as opposed to

You know, just AI, whatever it generates, it generates, but a creative director, somebody with, with a level of experience and intuition and, instinct that could take that creative to the next level, because just taking whatever is output can sometimes, like you said, it could be junk, could be ineffective. It could be off strategy. could be not good for what that brand is doing. And so you still need somebody as a creative director or somebody as an editor to read this copy and say,

Yeah, this isn't really aligning with some things or this just doesn't feel right or this doesn't read right or this doesn't flow right. You know, it doesn't, doesn't, doesn't work. do you see that as a, also an evolution of the place of creatives within even an agency or even an in-house, you know, creative team or whatever is, is elevating their, their position from just being a mouse jockey to a strategist. Yeah.

Brandon Triola (47:08.962)
Yeah, I think that's an amazing question actually, Paul. And I think we're going to see over the next two to five years, like this, an advent like we've never seen before around the value of creative leadership and creative direction. mean, sure there's creative directors and art directors, but we're going to see the value for that skyrocket more than ever in history because AI, these LLMs, they just data process. They're only as good as the data that you put into it.

Paul Povolni (47:09.823)
I think that's an amazing question actually, And I think we're going to see over the next two to five years, this, an advent like we've never seen before around the value of creative leadership and creative direction. I mean, sure there's creative directors and art directors, but we're going to see the value for that skyrocket more than ever in history because AI, these LLMs, they just data process. They're only as good as the data that you put into it.

Brandon Triola (47:38.47)
The most valuable creatives in any industry, any field, so pick your thing, writing, videography, are the ones who have an expanded palette of taste that they've developed over years because they're the ones that can give the best inputs to create the best product. So the real example that I use is we have senior level designers on our team. We have junior level designers. If I give them both the same artificial intelligence tool,

Paul Povolni (47:38.817)
The most valuable creatives in any industry, any field, so pick your thing, writing, videography, are the ones who have an expanded palette of tastes that they've developed over years because they're the ones that can give the best inputs to create the best product. So the real example that I use is we have senior level designers on our team. We have junior level designers. If I give them both the same artificial intelligence tool,

Brandon Triola (48:05.818)
And I asked them to build me a mood board or build me a stylistic direction for something. Who do you think will create the better, more cohesive, more emotional, more deeper, just better overall, objectively better thing? It's not the junior, it's the senior level person who has earned their scars over the decades and has a palette of taste and they understand and they...

Paul Povolni (48:06.177)
And I asked them to build me a mood board or build me a stylistic direction for something. Who do you think will create the better, more cohesive, more emotional, more deeper, better overall objectively better thing? It's not the junior. It's the senior level person who has, has earned their scars over the decades and has a, has a, has a palette of taste and they understand and they

Brandon Triola (48:35.194)
They know every detail from, yeah, the lighting needs to be moody on this image to the tone of the writing. But nothing against juniors. can still, you can still be low-skilled, low-talent, low-experienced with the amazing things. But the creative direction element of it is so massively important right now. And I do think that that's not what is getting talked about a lot. Taste, and I've heard Chris Doe talk about this. I've heard tech founders talk about this, but taste is the key. And so.

Paul Povolni (48:35.541)
They know every detail from, yeah, the lighting needs to be moody on this image to the tone of the writing. But nothing against juniors, you can still be low skill, low talent, low experience, it be an amazing thing. But the creative direction element of it is so massively important right now. And I do think that that's not what is getting talked about a lot. I've heard Chris Doe talk about this. I've heard tech founders talk about this, but taste is the key.

Brandon Triola (49:03.098)
If you're a creative person and you're a little bit freaked out, the best thing you can do this weekend is go to a coffee shop and go to an antique store and go to an old book store and just immerse yourself in architecture and, learn about trees and learn about leaves outside and learn about different kinds of birds and, you know, study the different kinds of whatever, learn about musicians that you've never heard of and study abstract art and just turn your brain into like this Pinterest board of taste.

Paul Povolni (49:03.457)
If you're a creative person and you're a little bit freaked out, the best thing you can do this weekend is go to a coffee shop and go to an antique store and go to an old bookstore and just immerse yourself in architecture and, learn about trees and learn about leaves outside and learn about different kinds of birds and, you know, study the different kinds of whatever, learn about musicians that you've never heard of and study abstract art and just turn your brain into like this Pinterest board of taste.

Brandon Triola (49:29.55)
That's what's going to produce the most valuable people that use AI over the next, we're going to really, we're going to see it jump in like two to five years. What you're going see courses. People are going to develop courses. You're going to sell courses about creative direction, art direction. I saw something where somebody, of course, on like, art, art history and art history app for your phone that you download and every day it's spending things for art.

Paul Povolni (49:29.877)
That's what's going to produce the most valuable people that use AI over the next, we're going to really, we're going to see it jump in the two to five years. Watch courses. People are going to develop courses. You're going to sell courses about creative direction, art direction. I saw something where somebody, a course on like, art, art history and art history app for your phone that you download and every day it spends you things for art.

Brandon Triola (49:57.134)
to help you learn and understand art history because we've lost our taste as a creative society. And I'm like, it's here, like it's already here, it's happening. And so I do believe we're gonna see a massive jump in this stuff.

Paul Povolni (49:57.493)
to help you learn and understand art history because we've lost our taste as a creative society. And I'm like, it's here, like it's already here, it's happening. And so I do believe we're going to see a massive jump in this stuff. Yeah, think, yeah, the rebirth of the Renaissance man, you know, because, you know, that's where you develop the taste, the intuition, the insight, the instinct that takes time. takes absorbing, you know, and I've often said that

Brandon Triola (50:13.646)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (50:27.563)
Sometimes I'm a sponge and so I absorb all these different influences and all these different things. I love your background. You got the superhero stuff. Yeah. And so, and then, but when it comes to then creating is like I'm squeezed and what comes out is this, this, this combination of all these influences, this combination of all these things that I've absorbed in my life, in, in, my pursuits, in my interest, in my hobbies, in my, my downtime.

Brandon Triola (50:32.206)
Yeah, I love your background. You've got the superhero stuff back there.

Brandon Triola (50:42.82)
So good.

Paul Povolni (50:56.169)
you know, soaking in and then when it comes time to be creative, I'm squeezed and what comes out is this new thing that is something that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't had taste or had interest or been that Renaissance man of different interests. And you're absolutely right. I think that really is the future where you're developing people that are more strategy based. And, know, you'd mentioned the junior designers too. You know, I remember when I was a early designer in my young days, you know,

Design was so emotional at that point for me. It wasn't strategic. It was emotional. And so I'd create this design and I'd present it like an infant, you know, and say, love my baby, you know, and they said, your baby's ugly. And I'm like, no, you know, it was like the worst thing in the world, you know, because they didn't love my baby that I just, I thought was the best thing I ever created. And I think that's where maturity comes in is you start thinking more strategically.

Brandon Triola (51:35.802)
Yes!

Paul Povolni (51:50.309)
and realizing that, it wasn't quite solving the problem. Now it was some great Photoshop effects, know, and there's some great things that I did in freehand, but, you know, it didn't solve the problem. It was just something emotional. And I think that's where you're going to have to, as a designer, think evolve from, you know, creating these things out of just as a love child, but it's also got to be strategic. And you develop that strategy through this experience of

of insight and making sure that you stay on strategy and you're not just creating to create because it's not going to solve the problem that you need to solve for the client. Man, that's so good. I love that. I really resonate with that. And what I see in the market too, to what you just said is the people that hire creative services professionals, they actually want someone strategic right now. They don't just want an order taker. Part of the thing that creative people need to do is we need to change how we see ourselves a little bit.

Brandon Triola (52:23.736)
Man, that's so good. I love that. I really resonate with that. And what I see in the market too, to what you just said is the people that hire creative services professionals, they actually want someone strategic right now. They don't just want an order taker. And part of the thing that creative people need to do is we need to change how we see ourselves a little bit. And if you just see yourself as a mouse clicker, like you said earlier, it's going to be hard. You're going to be really, you're going to be discouraged.

Paul Povolni (52:44.641)
And if you just see yourself as a mouse clicker, like you said earlier, it's going to be hard. You're going to be really, you're going to be discouraged. The good news is people that want to spend a lot of money on creative services, they don't just want somebody to make the logo bigger. They want somebody to actually guide them and lead them strategically. So again, back to this being a moment, this is the moment for you. If you're listening to this as a creative person to look in the mirror and not just see yourself as an order taker anymore, but to really go.

Brandon Triola (52:51.47)
The good news is the people that want to spend a lot of money on creative services, they don't just want somebody to make the logo bigger. They want somebody to actually guide them and lead them strategically. So again, back to this being a moment, this is the moment for you, if you're listening to this as a creative person, to look in the mirror and not just see yourself as an order taker anymore, but to really go, what is the strategic version of me look like? What is the confidence strategic version of me sound like and feel like?

Paul Povolni (53:13.897)
What is the strategic version of me look like? What is the confidence strategic version of me sound like and feel like? And that's the person, if you step into becoming that and helping your client or your employer think strategically, that's what they want. And that's what they want to pay for. So this is the moment to become that and believe that you can be that because you can and step into that a little bit. Right. Right. Yeah. I think the age of the mouse jockey is, is coming to a close or at least it's headed that way.

Brandon Triola (53:19.97)
And that's the person, if you step into becoming that and helping your client or your employer think strategically, that's what they want. And that's what they want to pay for. But this is the moment to become that and believe that you can be that because you can and step into that a

Paul Povolni (53:42.613)
you know, people that made a living on Fiverr and 99 designs and some of those where, you know, the stuff was okay, but it wasn't fantastic. mean, AI can replace those guys, you know, and so they're going to suffer. And that's kind of bad because, you know, a lot of them came from, from countries where, you know, that, that income made a big difference for them and their family and all of that. but they've got to also learn how to evolve with what's happening as well. and so, you know, with, with,

your book coming out with your book being out, you we've talked about some of the principles. I know you have like eight keys in there and you've talked about some of them. What are some others that you want to share? mean, we're already almost come up to an hour and it feels like it's only been 10 minutes. So what are some other principles that you want to make sure you share that can really help save the creatives? Yeah. So I'll give a little overview of my story real quick and we'll kind of close with this. my wife and I got married, I

Brandon Triola (54:30.874)
Yeah. So I'll give a little overview of my story real quick and we'll kind of close with this. When my wife and I got married, I took the opportunity to like, okay, I'm going to be creative for a living. I'm going to actually do this. I was doing some ministry stuff. I was like on staff at a church and I'd been doing some design on the side and I actually moved from Ohio to Tennessee and I totally started over. I didn't know anybody. And I felt like this is the time for me to actually do this. This is my moment of reinvention. Now I have a family I have to provide.

Paul Povolni (54:38.401)
took the opportunity to like, okay, I'm to be creative for a living. I'm going to actually do this. I was doing some ministry stuff. I was like on staff at a church and I've been doing some design on the side and I actually moved from Ohio to Tennessee and it totally started over. I didn't know anybody. And I felt like this is the time for me to actually do this. This is my moment of reinvention. Now I have a family I have to provide. Okay, I'm going to go all in on the creative thing. Well, the sad reality is for the first year, I think I maybe made like $1,500 total.

Brandon Triola (54:59.386)
Okay, I'm going to go all in on the creative thing. Well, the sad reality is for the first year, I think I maybe made like $1,500 total for the year. I mean, it was really, really hard. In fact, it was so hard. The first sign that it was hard was we couldn't afford a Christmas tree at Goodwill. We stood in the aisle of Goodwill looking at a used Christmas tree. was $12. And I was literally like counting in my head how much money will be left in the bank if we bought the tree. That's when I started to realize maybe this isn't working out.

Paul Povolni (55:08.289)
the year. I it was really, really hard. In fact, it was so hard. The first sign that it was hard was we couldn't afford a Christmas tree at Goodwill. We stood in the aisle of Goodwill looking at a used Christmas tree. was $12. And I was literally like counting in my head how much money will be left in the bank if we bought the tree. That's when I started to realize maybe this isn't working out. Fast forward a couple months, we have to move out of our apartment. We have to move back in with my in-laws.

Brandon Triola (55:28.814)
Fast forward a couple months, we have to move out of our apartment. We have to move back in with my in-laws. And for me, it was the moment carrying boxes of our stuff back into the bedroom where my wife grew up going, I don't like how this feels. I don't like what I'm experiencing right now. And I've got to find a way out of this. Well, the book, I wrote it kind of from that start. And then a fast forward where I have a multi-million dollar business. It's still weird for me to say out loud and I don't like to say it, but I have to show the contrast.

Paul Povolni (55:34.303)
And for me, it was the moment carrying boxes of our stuff back into the bedroom where my wife grew up going. I don't like how this feels. I don't like what I'm experiencing right now. And I've got to find a way out of this. Well, the book, I wrote it kind of from that start. And then a fast forward where I have a multi-million dollar business. It's so weird for me to say out loud and I don't need to say it, but I have to show the contrast. So our business.

Brandon Triola (55:57.924)
So our business employees at any given time, 10 to 20 people, we have clients all over the world. you know, it's amazing what we've accomplished. And I go, how did this happen? So the book is literally just me. It's just me re-engineering, reverse engineering, how I got from that poor dude, he couldn't even afford to get his wife an apartment to this place where we're at. And so in the re-engineering process of writing this,

Paul Povolni (55:59.507)
employees at any given time, 10 to 20 people. have clients all over the world. It's amazing what we've accomplished. And I go, how did this happen? So the book is literally just me. It's just me re-engineering, reverse engineering, how I got from that poor dude who couldn't even afford to get his wife an apartment to this place where we're at. so in the re-engineering process of writing this,

Brandon Triola (56:26.522)
I wrote out these eight keys and I'll tell you them in chunks. There's three, there's three levels. Okay. So the book is written like a video game and there's three bosses that you have to beat in the video game. The first level you need what are called the, the character keys. These are things that you develop in here without these things. And this, this, this first level might feel like fluff, but literally without these three, there's three character keys in the book. Without them you're cooked. You won't even get past the second boss.

Paul Povolni (56:27.121)
I wrote out these eight keys and I'll tell you them in chunks. three levels. So the book is written like a video game. There's three bosses that you have to beat in a video game. Nice. The first level, you need what are called the character keys. These are things that you develop in here without these things. And this first level might feel like fluff, but literally without these three, there's three character keys in the book. Without them, you're cooked. You won't even get past the second boss.

Brandon Triola (56:55.438)
then I talk about what those are. And then the second layer are called skill keys. These are not just like get better at photography or videography, but one of those skill keys are cross-functional skills. I talk about what that is, I talk about what that's not. And I talk about the number one list of cross-functional skills every creative professional needs to learn if they want to increase their value. And these skills, if you learn them, value in the market will go up. And then the third level, there's some other skill keys that are really good, but the third level is the most important.

Paul Povolni (56:55.817)
And I talk about what those are. And then the second layer are called skill keys. These are not just like get better at photography or videography. But one of those skills are cross-functional skills. I talk about what that is, I talk about what that's not. And I talk about the number one list of cross-functional skills every creative professional needs to learn if they want to increase their value. And these skills, if you learn them, your value in the market will go up. And then the third level, there's some other skill keys that are really good. But the third level is the most

And I wrote it in the order that I did because if you don't start with the first level and then get the second, you'll never ever ever get to the third. The third level are the relationship keys. And I call them strategic relationship keys for a reason. And I'll share one of those. One of those relationship keys is something that I call door people. And what a door person does is a door person walks you into a level of success you could never get to on your own. That's not all that they do.

Brandon Triola (57:25.594)
And I wrote it in the order that I did because if you don't start with the first level and then get the second, you'll never ever, ever get to the third. The third level are the relationship keys. And I call them strategic relationship keys for a reason. And I'll share one of those. One of those relationship keys is something that I call door people. And what a door person does is a door person walks you into a level of success you could never get to on your own. But that's not all that they do.

What a door person has the potential to do in your life as a creative person, really anybody, is take you from incremental change. So think incremental change, right? You get a little bit better at your creative thing. You get a raise at work. There's lots of people online that will teach you how to get incrementally better, and you should. But if you want exponential overnight, overnight exponential change, it takes people.

Paul Povolni (57:53.291)
What a door person has the potential to do in your life as a creative person, literally anybody, is take you from incremental change. So think incremental change, right? You get a little bit better at your creative thing. You get a raise at work. There's lots of people online that will teach you how to get incrementally better, and you should. But if you want exponential overnight, overnight exponential change, it takes people.

Brandon Triola (58:18.458)
people, being in proximity to people that can walk you into opportunities you would never have access to. And so I talk about door people in my life who literally walked me into industries and projects at two, three X my income overnight. And you can't get that in courses. You can't get that in college. You definitely can't get that going to conferences. You can only get this exponential growth.

Paul Povolni (58:18.859)
people, being in proximity to people that can walk you into opportunities you would never have access to. And so I talk about your people in my life who literally walked me into industries and projects at two, three X my income overnight. And you can't get that in courses. You can't get that in college. You definitely can't get that going to conferences. You can only get this exponential growth.

Brandon Triola (58:42.906)
with these strategic relationships. And so I talk about the two or three kinds of strategic relationships that those are. just gave everybody one. It's called door people. I've got some stories in there of door people who walk me into things. And so it's not a book about how to get better at creativity. It's not a book about how to use AI. The book talks about AI and how to approach it a little bit and some of the problems that it's creating. But there's at the end of each chapter, there's actionable workbook type things that you can go through that help you.

Paul Povolni (58:43.327)
with these strategic relationships. And so I talk about the two or three kinds of strategic relationships that those are. just gave everybody one called door people. I've got some stories in there of door people who walk me into things. And so it's not a book about how to get better at creativity. It's not a book about how to use AI. The book talks about AI and how to approach it a little bit and some of the problems that it's creating. But there's at the end of each chapter, there's actionable workbook type things that you can go through that help you.

Brandon Triola (59:12.172)
actually build a roadmap towards becoming this person that the book is giving me a roadmap for. And so at the beginning of the book, everybody has an exercise that they go through in here where they define what abundance means for them. And that's the most important thing because what it might be for all might be different than what it is for Brandon. And so I share my definition of abundance. And then I give everybody a chance and a prompt to fill in how you define abundance. Because if you don't get clear on what you want, you'll actually never go after and achieve it. And then the book.

Paul Povolni (59:12.543)
actually build a roadmap towards becoming this person that the book is giving me a roadmap for and tell At the beginning of the book everybody has an exercise that they go through in here where they define what abundance means for them That's the most important thing because what it might be for all might be different than what it is for brandon And so I share my definition of abundance and then I give everybody a chance and a prompt to Fill in how you define abundance because if you don't get clear on what you want You'll actually never go after and achieve it and then the book

Brandon Triola (59:41.496)
learning the eight keys actually become the blueprint to going after your abundance. You get to defeat the bosses. It's like a video game. There's three levels. It's fun. I wrote it song on purpose because I'm a creative and I don't have an attention span to read like a boring technical book. And so I didn't want to make it that.

Paul Povolni (59:41.877)
learning the eight keys actually become the blueprint to going after your abundance. You get to defeat the bosses. It's like a video game. There's three levels. It's fun. I wrote it on purpose because I'm a creative and I don't have an attention span to read like a boring technical book. And so I didn't want to make it that. Yeah, man, that is so awesome. Well, as we wrap this up, one of the questions that I like asking is what is a question or a head smack that you wish I'd asked you about?

Brandon Triola (01:00:12.45)
I wish you would have asked me what is one of the hardest things about being creative for a living.

Paul Povolni (01:00:12.787)
I wish you would have asked me what is one of the hardest things about being created for a living. And so what is it?

Brandon Triola (01:00:24.364)
I can speak from two perspectives.

Paul Povolni (01:00:24.745)
I can speak from two perspectives.

Brandon Triola (01:00:29.802)
I care so much about what I make. I care, I care. Here's the hardest thing for me, caring more about what your client is getting you to do, they're making about it. Client pays you $20,000 to design something, 30,000 to outline the strategy. I care so much about how good, how accurate, how insight backed it is that I will.

Paul Povolni (01:00:30.081)
I care so much about what I make. I care. I care. Here's the hardest thing for me, caring more about what your client is paying you to do. care about it. Client pays you $20,000 to design something, $30,000 to outline the strategy. I care so much about how good, how accurate, how insight backed it is that I will.

Brandon Triola (01:00:55.854)
demolish my own wellbeing sometimes or my teams or, when they don't care or they just like scrap it and disregard it. I will feel like curling myself off a ledge in certain moments. And I battle this every single day and I love it. It's what makes, it's what makes me really great at what I do, but sometimes caring so deeply is really bad for business. And you have to learn how to remove your emotions and you know,

Paul Povolni (01:00:56.213)
demolish my own wellbeing sometimes or my teams or when they don't care or they just like scrap it and disregard it, I will feel like curling myself off a ledge at a certain moment. And I battle this every single day and I love it. It's what makes me really great at what I do. But sometimes caring so deeply is really bad for business and you have to learn how to remove your emotions.

Brandon Triola (01:01:25.048)
I constantly want to save. I want to save everybody. mean, look at the title of the book. Paul, I'll just be honest with you. I want to make so much money, not because I want the money, but because I want to employ every creative person I meet. I want to bring them into the amazing culture that I have. I want to give them amazing salary. I want to give them, you know, we have unlimited PTO. I want to be so successful so that I can bring every creative person in and so that I can teach them and equip them and then send them off into other things. But it's hard. You can't always think that way.

Paul Povolni (01:01:25.739)
constantly want to save. I want to save everybody. mean, look at the, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul, just be honest with you. I want to make so much money, not because I want the money, but because I want to employ every creative person I meet. Yeah. I want to bring them into the amazing culture that I have. want to give them amazing salary. I want to give them, you know, we have unlimited PTO. I want to be so successful so that I can bring every creative person in so that I can teach them and equip them and then send them off into other things. But it's hard. can't always think that way.

Brandon Triola (01:01:54.734)
So being emotional and learning how to like rein that in is so hard and I'm working on it, but I'm sure somebody can resonate with what I'm saying.

Paul Povolni (01:01:54.973)
Right. emotional and learning how to like rein that in is so hard and I'm working on it, but I'm sure somebody can resonate with what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, man. That is so good. So how do people get a hold of the book? How do they get a hold of you if they want to learn more about you? What's the best way to do that? If you're a struggling creative person, go to save the creatives.com. I've got

Brandon Triola (01:02:12.694)
If you're a struggling creative person, go to savethecreatives.com. I've got a bunch of other stuff on there that you can get access to. If you just want to get a paperback copy of the book, just go to Amazon. It's there. But on the website, we have like an audio book and I've got a couple other resources and there's some things there that you can get access to. But if you're just like, nah, just take me to the book. Go to, just go to Amazon and you can find it. You can find more about me on just my website, brandintriello.com. And if you're

Paul Povolni (01:02:17.729)
a bunch of other stuff on there that you can get access to. If you just want to get a paperback copy of the book, just go to Amazon. It's there. But on the website, we have like an audio book and I've got a couple other resources and there's some things there that you can get access to. But if you're just like, nah, just take me to the book. Just go to Amazon and you can find it. You can find more about me on just my website, BrandonTriello.com. And if you're a B2B tech company of any kind, you want to more about what we do or get in touch. Forrest.

Brandon Triola (01:02:39.896)
B2B tech company of any kind. want to learn more about what we do or get in touch? Forest-co.com. That's Forest with two R's. Forest-co.com. I think if you go to forest.co at reroutes, but yeah, I mean, I'd love to connect. I'm on Instagram. So if you're creative and you just want to like get to know me a little bit and, see some of my other content that I'm constantly putting out to help creative people, check me out on Instagram, give me a follow. I'll try to give you a follow back and I'd love to connect there.

Paul Povolni (01:02:45.045)
That's forest with two R's. forest-co.com. think if you go to forest.co at reroute, but, yeah, I mean, I'd love to connect. I'm on Instagram. So if you're creative and you just want to like get to know me a little bit and, and see some of my other content that I'm constantly putting out to help creative people check me out on Instagram, give me a follow. I'll try to give you a follow back and I'd love to connect there. Well, Brandon, this has been amazing. Absolutely. I've loved this conversation. love talking to creatives.

and hearing their heart, hearing their passion and hearing their thoughts, especially in this ever evolving area, time that we're in when it comes to creativity and creative output and creative services. And so I do encourage you to get the book. I think you also have a community that's attached to it, right? Yep. If you go to savethecreatives.com, you can see how you can get access to that. I have a free school community and it's growing every day. So we'd love to get you in there. We're going to be doing some fun

Brandon Triola (01:03:34.062)
Yep, if you go to savethecreatives.com, you can see how you can get access to that. I have a free school community and it's growing every day. So we'd love to get you in there. We're going to be doing some fun stuff in there this year.

Paul Povolni (01:03:44.673)
there this year. All right, man. Well, you have a good one. Be sure to check all of those links out. SaveTheCreatives.com. Check out Amazon to get the book. If you want to learn more about Brandon, go to BrandonTriola.com. I'll have all of those links in the show notes. But thank you, everybody, for joining us. And thank you, Brandon. This has been a great conversation. Paul, thanks so much, man. Yeah, it's been super fun.

Brandon Triola (01:04:03.694)
Paul, thanks so much, man. Yeah, it's been super fun.