Thomas Willis / Leadership. Culture Building. Author - The Great Engagement

Culture eats everything!
In this episode, Tom Willis reveals why most organizations struggle not because of strategy, but because of culture. Dive deep into the invisible forces that shape success or failure — and discover how radical acceptance, servant leadership, and a clear mission can transform any team.

5 Key Takeaways:

• Why culture is the hidden driver of every result you get
• How fear and love shape every organization
• The right way to fix "communication" problems
• Leadership vs. Management vs. Coaching — and when to use each
• How radical acceptance powers true transformation

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Guest Bio:

Thomas Willis is a culture transformation expert and author of "The Great Engagement: How CEOs Create Exceptional Cultures." With an impressive career spanning education, engineering, and executive leadership, Tom has served as CEO of Cornerstone, consulted with PricewaterhouseCoopers, and worked as an engineer at Intel Corporation. Holding degrees from the University of Michigan and an MBA from Notre Dame, Tom now leads Phoenix Performance Partners, where he helps organizations breakthrough performance plateaus by creating exceptional cultures focused on relationships rather than mere compliance. His approach has been endorsed by leadership guru Ken Blanchard and has helped countless organizations achieve sustainable transformation..

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (07:05.048)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I'm excited to have another misfit with me. I have Tom Willis with me and Thomas believes that we are all born with unlimited potential as a former classroom teacher. He also believes in the power of lifelong learning. These beliefs have shaped his primary goal in life, helping others uncover their talents so they can reach their potential prior to joining Phoenix, which is the company that he's a part of.

He had the great honor of serving as CEO of Cornerstone, a consultant with Price Waterhouse Coopers and an engineer with the Intel Corporation. Along the way, been fortunate enough to earn degrees from the University of Michigan and the University of Notre Dame, MBA. And he thanks God every day for his amazing wife and three wonderful children. Hey, Tom, how you doing, man?

Tom Willis (08:04.128)
Awesome, Paul, thanks for having me on.

Paul Povolni (08:05.781)
Hey, I'm excited about this conversation. You know, when I first connected with you on LinkedIn and saw that you had written a book on a topic that I love, I thought I need to connect with this guy and we need to have a conversation. I love all things culture and your new book just released last year, right? And I have both the Kindle and the hard copy. And so I just started diving into that.

but look forward to learning a little bit more about that. so thank you for coming on, man.

Tom Willis (08:38.03)
Yeah, thanks, Paul. I appreciate it. It's fun to talk about this subject, obviously care enough about it to write the book, The Great Engagement. So really looking forward to our discussion.

Paul Povolni (08:48.291)
So, you I read your bio, but I do like to hear a little bit about people's origin stories and kind of where you got started, how it all got started. So where, tell me a little bit about the origin story of Tom and you can go as far back as possible or as appropriate to kind of share a little bit about your story and how you came to do what you do now.

Tom Willis (09:11.874)
Yeah, well, I like to tell people that I'd be a professional athlete if I hadn't broken my leg when I was two years old. I literally had a body cast from my chest down both legs and my brothers would push me around in a wheelbarrow. So it's one of my earliest memories. And I'm not sure if I actually remember it or if I just remember it because we talk about it a lot and I've seen pictures of it. But yeah, I had a...

Paul Povolni (09:18.247)
hahahaha

Paul Povolni (09:28.099)
wow.

Tom Willis (09:41.268)
Awesome childhood, really amazing parents, two older brothers, grew up in a sort of middle-class family in Michigan here and didn't really want for anything. Although as I learned later in life, my dad was an entrepreneur and there were times where we were probably one paycheck away from a different path in life. so, he's been a huge motivation for me as an entrepreneur throughout my life.

Paul Povolni (10:02.371)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (10:09.518)
One of the stories is he went into the local bank and asked for a loan to start this new business. he had a new wife, a new child, my oldest brother, didn't really have much money and he needed money to buy a bunch of equipment. And they gave him the loan and he walked out and he thought, like, how did that just happen? Like, those people are crazy. Gave him me a loan and come to find out 40 years later that his aunt had walked into the bank the week before and said,

my cousin or my nephew is going to be here next week, whatever he asked for, you give it to him and I'll back his, I'll back it, but don't tell him. And so it's it's a great story that, you know, we've all got these invisible supportive forces in our lives that sometimes we learn about and sometimes we don't. But if we can nurture that ability to see the, the invisible and to see how blessed most of us are, we can just live a much more fulfilling life. And so,

Paul Povolni (10:45.495)
Wow, wow.

Tom Willis (11:07.394)
So yeah, fast forward to today. I've got this amazing team making organization and we primarily help CEOs create exceptional cultures.

Paul Povolni (11:15.885)
So how, you know, that journey, to words talking about culture, what, what prompted, early on, was that a later in life that you realized the value of culture? Was that something along the way that you just kept seeing? And it was a moment that you had this light bulb moment about it. Like how did, how did that journey towards seeing that as a key to business success come along?

Tom Willis (11:43.202)
Yeah, not just a key, but the key in my opinion, you know, that there's everyone probably familiar with the phrase culture each strategy for breakfast that people attribute to Peter Drucker, but there's other people that set up before him. And so it's been around for a while. We actually like to say that culture eats everything for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you know, culture, culture is it like as a, if you're a leader out there, if you're a CEO.

Paul Povolni (11:45.645)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:04.121)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (12:08.974)
The one piece of advice I would give you is focus on your culture because you can make a huge difference in your performance and the results that you get just based on focusing on creating a better culture. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but wherever you are, push to that next level. Push your culture to that next level of ability and capability and openness and all the things that people wanna work for because the reality is,

Most organizations aren't very good at this. It's the reason that we have this huge challenge with engagement. It's why people are quiet quitting. We had the great resignation. 70 % of people, according to Gallup, are just not engaged. They're just checked out. And it's sad, in my opinion. We can do better as leaders.

Paul Povolni (12:58.807)
Yeah. Yeah. By the way, when you rub your hands, it's like, it's like really, really loud. so, you know, looking at, your career, you've obviously you've got to work at some pretty large companies, big organizations, you know, you're leading a great company now. what were there moments within that experience that highlighted culture to you that sent you on that journey? like what was the trigger?

Tom Willis (13:03.626)
I'm sorry. I'm nervous.

Paul Povolni (13:26.925)
that made you come to that realization of how critical culture was.

Tom Willis (13:32.504)
Yeah, I think a few things. I was lucky enough to be a part of some groups like the Gates Foundation and others where we got to go visit some other schools across the country. And I remember walking into one school and within like 10 seconds, I could almost taste the culture. And I know it sounds weird to say, but when you get good at it, you literally can walk into a building and not just a school, but any organization. And you can almost tell what kind of culture it has within the first few seconds.

Paul Povolni (13:48.044)
Wow.

Tom Willis (14:01.71)
And that usually is a predictor of what kind of results they're getting, how they perform and whatnot. So for me, sort of the invisible nature, the unconscious nature of culture is precisely what makes it so powerful. It's like the iceberg analogy, right? That most of what shapes a culture is below the surface of awareness.

Paul Povolni (14:17.719)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (14:22.615)
Yeah. Yeah. And so you started seeing that, you know, when you, when you approach the schools, but where did that awareness of culture, like most people have are in similar situations, you know, they come and go, they, walk in and out of businesses, they walk in, in and out of jobs, they walk in and out of churches, organizations, whatever. And they never have the awareness of culture like you apparently did. So where did that come from?

Tom Willis (14:52.174)
It's gonna sound like a non-answer, Paul, but I don't know precisely as a short answer. Partially because I can't remember yesterday, I have a terrible memory. But partially because I think, my faith is hugely important to me and so I spend a lot of time talking with God or I think I'm talking to God anyway. And a lot of time just trying to listen to sort of the invisible.

Paul Povolni (14:53.812)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (15:01.943)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (15:18.647)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (15:20.15)
And so I think it's probably one of those moments of just the classroom of silence. There's a great author, actually a fellow, there's a great author, a fellow Aussie, his name is Matthew Kelly. And he talks about, if we just spent more time in the classroom of silence, we could learn way more about life than reading another book or watching another show or attending another meeting or going to another conference.

Paul Povolni (15:40.725)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (15:46.552)
If we can do the opposite of what the world is telling us to do and just slow down, we could learn way more.

Paul Povolni (15:53.101)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. For me, you know, the, the understanding of culture, obviously I'm not from around here, which is what they tell me no matter where I go, even when I go to Australia, tell me I'm not from around there. but for me, that's where the awareness of, cultural impact, and cultural differences and all of that started, you know, for me started making me aware of it. you know, with me, I looked like every other American, but there was a very different thing, different part about me, different.

upbringing, different values, different priorities, different ways of understanding very similar situations. And so for me, that's where culture for me, you know, I started to be more aware of it. And it wasn't until I got into, you know, the corporate realm that I started seeing the impact of culture and what a difference it makes. And so, you know, that I'm with you on that. I believe culture.

can really make or break a company. And it's a lot more important than most people even think about. Now in your book, you started off with a quote from Henry David Trudeau, and you said, the massive men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. Talk a little bit about that.

Tom Willis (17:14.466)
Yeah, well, I'm gonna back up even further and talk about this idea that many people have talked about frankly over the centuries. But Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who some of your listeners may recognize that name, she's the one that sort of coined this idea of death and dying and the five stages of grief and whatnot that people are familiar with. Brilliant, brilliant woman. She wrote like 35 books in her lifetime. But she made a pretty compelling argument that foundationally and fundamentally,

We human beings are really driven by two emotions. There are two emotions below all other emotions, not anger, but fear. That really fear is driving every other sort of emotion on that end of the spectrum. And at the other end of the spectrum is love, or more specifically agape love, this idea of putting the other first, trying to be of service to others.

Paul Povolni (18:10.594)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (18:11.406)
Any good organization frankly does that, right? If you think about it, if they don't put their customers first, if they're not trying to be of service to the other, the customer, then they're going to go to business. And then we've seen that happen time and time again, when companies get focused internally on themselves and what they want and how much money they want, they start to run into trouble. But organizations that really get that they're in the business of serving their customers flourish for decades. And so,

Paul Povolni (18:30.584)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (18:38.636)
And it happens at a very human level, at a very individual level. And in the book, we talk a lot about fear and love, fear and love. Are we reacting out of fear and sort of self-defense, or are we responding out of love and out of being of service to others? And we actually get into these 12 cultural mindsets that are those things that happen below the level of awareness, know, things like gossip and drama and avoidance that really eat away at a culture.

Paul Povolni (19:07.427)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (19:07.47)
and then what the antidote is to all of those.

Paul Povolni (19:10.743)
That's so good. That's so good. Now you also mentioned that it's really a communication problem between departments. It's a relationship issue. Once people know each other as human beings, everything changes. So share a little bit what you mean by that and how you've seen that impact culture and relationships.

Tom Willis (19:29.09)
Yeah, well, for 30 plus years that we've been doing this work, the number one word we've heard from CEOs and school superintendents and executive directors and presidents and leaders is we have a communication problem. And the problem with the word communication is it means so many different things that it means nothing. And what we've found is that literally, it's not a communication problem. It's almost always a relationship problem. But it's easier to say communication

because then we can just sort of dance around it. We don't have to be that wrecked.

Paul Povolni (20:02.807)
Right. And it doesn't say, yeah, it doesn't sound so personal communication. You know, just this, this word, but relationships. Wow. That's yeah. That gets a little more serious. Yeah.

Tom Willis (20:12.578)
That's not what sounds harder or for some people it's like, you know, what does that have to do with anything? We're here to run a business. We don't have time for relationships. Well, good luck with that. See how that works for you. Unless you're like a prison warden, or you were working on the automotive assembly line a hundred years ago, the, the fear based approach to leadership is dead. It's, it's dying before our very eyes. Right. If you want to be effective, you've got to figure this out. You've got to figure out.

Paul Povolni (20:23.289)
Ha

Ha

Tom Willis (20:41.826)
that people aren't motivated by fear, the best you'll get is commitment. But when you can inspire folks, when you can help people to see the shared purpose of what we're trying to accomplish and get in touch with their own aspirations, like what the person cares about, they'll give you 10 times more than what you need. They'll go above and beyond every single time.

Paul Povolni (20:59.235)
Right, right. That's so good. So when, you know, now that you've written the book and obviously you've dealt with this and talked about this for a while, when somebody approaches you and they say, have a culture problem, or maybe they don't have a culture problem and you see a culture problem, they call you in for some consulting and they don't see it as a culture problem. Maybe they're trying to solve another problem. What are some of the first things that you look at when,

examining to see if indeed it is a culture problem.

Tom Willis (21:32.046)
Well, I might rephrase it slightly, Paul. We don't actually come in and fix organizations. That's one of the challenges of this industry is too many consultants out there sort of selling their wares like they're going to fix you. And we don't believe in that as a sort of out of the gate philosophically. We think that every organization is perfectly designed to get the results it's getting. And most of the time we come in, the organization is doing quite well, frankly. Like most of the teams we work with are doing great, but they're frustrated because they feel like they plateaued.

And they're not sure what to do. They've read the latest book, you know, the hottest topic. but none of those things seem to work. They never make it like a dent and they're looking for help to literally take the next level to break through to a whole new level of effectiveness. And so that's where we're typically doing our work is, we come in with very much a, a growth mindset that no one's broken. Nothing's wrong with you guys. You're doing great. And like all human beings, we can grow them and get better. And so.

Paul Povolni (22:02.584)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (22:18.403)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (22:32.632)
Let's do it together, let's do it as a team.

Paul Povolni (22:35.799)
And so what are some of the things that you first start talking about with them?

Tom Willis (22:41.678)
Yeah, great question. Well, we have to start with a very clear look at the current reality, like what is going on, which sounds so simple, right? But most of the time we avoid that stuff. We don't want to talk about the dirty laundry. And so we're pretty good at unearthing the reality of like what's going on, what's going well, but also what's not going so well and helping people to have those conversations that they've never had before. know, Bob and Susie don't really like each other, but they never really said that and they really explained why.

Paul Povolni (22:53.641)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (23:11.992)
Well, we got to start there. We got to get to like, what's going on? Why, what's the, what's the friction between you two as an example. And sometimes just declaring it can be really helpful to people that move beyond it. And then we spent a ton of time focusing on, okay, what do you want? What's the future that you're going for? And do you want to continue to kind of have this tiff between you or do you guys want to work on having a breakthrough and becoming much more effective teammates? And almost always.

Paul Povolni (23:22.563)
Right, right.

Tom Willis (23:39.778)
People pick that, right? But they just don't know how to do it.

Paul Povolni (23:43.649)
Yeah. So yeah, that's true. And that goes back down to the relationship thing. so, know, when you start looking at those, the key, the key ingredients to an unhealthy culture, and then the key ingredients to a healthy culture, what are some of the, the, know, you talked to relationships, are there any other things that you look at, to see if, if a culture is unhealthy?

Tom Willis (24:07.01)
Yeah, we do a series of, have our own proprietary surveys that we roll out. It's a pretty intense program, frankly. You know, this is not for the faint of heart, which is why we're able to promise results to CEOs. If the CEO is 100 % serious about this and about taking their team to next level, then we're not the team for you. If you just want to bring in somebody to train your people or to do leadership training, that's not us. Cause that's a-

Paul Povolni (24:18.009)
Ha

Yeah.

Tom Willis (24:34.872)
can be intellectually stimulating, but very rarely does it actually do anything and we don't want to waste our time. So we have a pretty intense, usually about a five month engagement with clients. And it starts with a really deep dive into what's going on, which is includes our surveys. have our, our own elevate coaching system, which is a, like a model that helps people get familiar with their own, what we call default success strategies. Like what, what really is motivating us unconsciously, you know, what's really driving us below the surface.

A lot of this stuff gets formed very young in our lives and we just don't realize it. We're not conscious to it. So a good chunk of our work is just helping the individuals on the team become aware of how their unconscious motivations are shaping the unconscious culture that they're working in. And it's really awesome because talk about headsmack moments when a CEO, a bit of CEO once, this is after the second, after the first day of the work, he said, I woke up at three in the morning.

And I swore I saw like an image in my room. It was like this experience. And I realized that I was so frustrated that my culture of a hundred or a thousand employees wasn't getting results, wasn't doing what they say they were gonna do. We didn't have a culture of integrity where we did what we said we were gonna do. And he said, realized at three in the morning that it's because I wasn't doing what I said I would do. I was.

Paul Povolni (25:53.059)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (25:58.687)
Right, right.

Tom Willis (25:59.64)
saying I would do something and then I wouldn't do it because well, I'm the CEO and I'm busy, you people understand. And he said, it was like this huge headsmack moment of like, geez, I have to be the work, I have to be the example. And he said, within a few months, he said, I started witnessing random acts of accountability, know, spontaneous acts of accountability everywhere.

Paul Povolni (26:21.697)
Wow. Well, and it does, it does start from the top because no matter how much you try and influence a culture, mean, sometimes you can influence from any place in the business. It's, know, the, the most influential person, regardless of position X can sometimes impact a culture, but it, but coming from the top, it's also important. So if you have, you know, culture initiatives that you're trying to do to make it a healthier culture, maybe it wasn't healthy. You know, you feel stagnant, you're not moving forward.

but leadership is not behind it. Or you have values plastered on the wall that people like, yeah, we don't do any of that. We don't communicate, we don't have integrity, don't, you know, whatever. And so it's gotta come from the top and then be enforced and be celebrated and, you know, be moved down through the ranks, right?

Tom Willis (27:12.642)
Yeah, exactly. The leaders have to be it before people are ever going to follow them, right? We know one of Enron's words, one of their values.

Paul Povolni (27:15.81)
Right.

Paul Povolni (27:22.657)
is integrity.

Tom Willis (27:24.994)
Yeah, so it shows you that most of that stuff is mostly worthless. And again, a lot of consultants out there spend all this time helping people shape their vision statements and their mission statements and their purpose statements and their values. it's like a painful exercise that takes an entire day. they distinguish, no, a vision is different than a mission, is different than a purpose. And maybe, like maybe they're a little bit different, but it doesn't matter.

Paul Povolni (27:29.667)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (27:42.977)
Right. Right.

Paul Povolni (27:48.153)
You

Tom Willis (27:52.782)
Like you're wasting, you're spending way too much time on things that don't matter. Because at end of the day, if you're not being it, they are just words on a piece of paper.

Paul Povolni (27:53.187)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:01.141)
Right, right. Well, and anytime that I've, I've talked to people about culture, it's usually, know, if you're going to have a statement, also have an action with it. Like how, how does this action or this, statement or this word, how does it play out in real life? Like how do you play it out in your day to day business activity? And so if you're to have a word like integrity, how does that actually play out in the business? it, you know, we, we, we will, you know, do whatever the

takes to do the right thing always, you know, in every situation. you know, but having these words just plastered on the wall of these mission statements that really don't have any actions attached to them or behaviors, then it makes it hard to enforce a culture, right?

Tom Willis (28:46.732)
Yeah, well, and you can't enforce a culture not to pick on your language there, Paul, but you know, that's again, it's a, it's a, it's a relic of a bygone era of like compliance and do what I say. And young people in particular have no interest in that. They're, they think they can just change jobs every six months if they want to. and so there's a, there's very much a change happening within our society. There, if people don't feel good about the team they work with and they don't feel like they're on a mission.

then you're not gonna be able to force them to do anything. You might for a little bit just because of the paycheck, but what kind of culture is that?

Paul Povolni (29:23.959)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you've shared something important there with, talking about mission. Is that something that you help a organization define, evaluate, implement like how, like, you know, that's a key part of it. So how do you, how do you work with an organization with that? How do you help them understand the value of it?

Tom Willis (29:45.718)
Yeah, we would help bring it to life, to reinvigorate it, to make it meaningful. We think of ourselves as sort of the implementation specialist. Most organizations have spent time doing mission, vision, values, all that stuff, but they're not living it. And that's where we come in. We're the ones that are good at helping people to really unearth it and to really unleash it so that it exists in the culture. We've got clients that are 10 years into this work and they're

Paul Povolni (30:01.976)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (30:15.384)
They're basically taking our work and they're doing it themselves. They don't need us anymore. We've given them all of our materials. They put their logo on it. They take all their new employees through it because they're living the work. They don't need a consultant to come in and tell them what to do.

Paul Povolni (30:27.159)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (30:31.221)
So, you know, so we've talked about some of the key things of when you go into an organization or when you're evaluating it, you know, starts from the leadership. It's mission vision values that are actually actionable. You know, they're not just words on a wall. You've talked about relationships, you've talked about mission. What are some of the other things that you've, that you look at that, you know, maybe even referenced in your book that you start looking at when it comes to a healthy culture in a business?

Tom Willis (31:01.676)
Yeah, we get into quite a few, you know, in the book, we get into quite a few pragmatic tools that leaders can use. And they're not like rocket science, frankly, but we have very different ways of approaching these things. So as an example, you know, three of the tools that are most powerful are leadership, management, and coaching. Those are three words everyone's heard before, but three words that people don't really understand. They don't really have a clear definition.

It's in there like the difference between a hammer, a saw and a screwdriver. Those are very different tools. You if you try to cut a two by four with a hammer, good luck, right? But yet we do it as leaders. We apply the management tool when that's not what's needed. What's needed is coaching or leadership. know, so we have a very different way of looking at those tools that always have people sort of having those aha moments of like,

Paul Povolni (31:38.531)
Right.

Tom Willis (31:58.638)
You know, I've been doing this for 20 years and now I finally get it. Now I finally get why I keep running into a brick wall because I'm using the wrong tool for the wrong situation.

Paul Povolni (32:08.867)
So go ahead and elaborate a little bit on that. Let's just kind of pull that thread a little bit. Because for some people, they might kind of know the difference between those three, or maybe they know it, or maybe they're like, well, they're kind of the same dog, different haircut. And so how would you define those and how different they are in application when it comes to culture and in business?

Tom Willis (32:33.964)
Yeah, great question. So, well, the first one is leadership because leadership, you really simplify it, if you think about one of the greatest leaders of the last century, it's Dr. Martin Luther King. He was unbelievably gifted at putting out a future that people are like, yes, I want that future. He called it a dream, right? That's how much of a future it was. It was a dream about a different future and it changed the world. It changed our country, certainly. And doesn't mean it was perfect. Doesn't mean it was easy, but

Paul Povolni (32:50.69)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (33:02.56)
he put out a future and that's leadership. Leadership is all about generating a view of the future that others take on as their future. And so this is important because if you don't put out that future first, then you've got nothing to manage. You've got nothing to coach. Cause if we're not aligned on where we're going, then we're going to fight about sort of the tactics and how to get there. Cause you want to go to Los Angeles and I want to go to Nashville. You know, it's like, and then we wonder why these meetings don't go very well.

Paul Povolni (33:04.289)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (33:28.003)
Right.

Tom Willis (33:32.236)
Right? So that's leadership. And we have a chapter on each one of these in the book. So I'm really giving this very short shrift here. So if you really want to dive into these in great detail, there's a lot more in the book about it. So if that's leadership, then along comes management. And management is very sorely misunderstood in our society. If you want to kill the energy in a room, bring up the word accountability, right?

Paul Povolni (34:01.953)
you

Tom Willis (34:03.41)
And we're just doing it all wrong, frankly. We're just doing it all wrong. So we talk about this idea of supportive accountability and a lot of different ways of thinking about the subject. But fundamentally, management is pretty simple. It's getting people to make agreements to do things. That's it. You agree to do this. I agree to do this. We agree to do it by this date. It's integrity. It's to integrate. Integrity and integrate share the same root, right?

You're integrating your word and your action. You are doing what you say you're going to do. And so if you think about that, that means you're not really managing a person, you're managing agreement that you made with the person, right? The bank doesn't particularly care about who Tom is or who Paul is, right? But they have a very clear agreement with us on our mortgages, right?

Paul Povolni (34:32.663)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (34:46.072)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (34:58.734)
Right.

Tom Willis (35:01.142)
It's black and white, you will pay the mortgage, you will pay it every month, or you will lose your house, right? And so it's a great example where management really can be quite simple. It's just making an agreement to do something. And most of the time, we avoid that. don't get a clear agreement, we kind of talk in generalities, or we tell people what to do, and they don't actually agree to do it. And so this is one of the parts that people have a hard time with is

Paul Povolni (35:06.935)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (35:30.146)
that if you want people on your team to be able to say yes to something you're asking them to do with integrity, they have to be able to say no. And most leaders have a really hard time with that. But the reality is people say yes, and then what do they do? If they can't do it, they don't do it. And the deadline gets missed and people get frustrated. So they just said no, they just didn't say it to your face. And so as leaders, again, we have to slow down and get really clear about that.

Paul Povolni (35:38.573)
Mmm, wow.

Right.

Paul Povolni (35:48.067)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (35:54.787)
Wow.

Tom Willis (35:59.18)
And then finally coaching, coaching is, know, in simple terms is everything else. It's whatever helps us to move towards that future. that helps to support those agreements we made. So leadership first management agreements, and then we coach the person, we help the person, we help ourselves move towards that future. And one of the keys to coaching is that coaching is only coaching if it's asked for. This is absolutely critical. You know, so many organizations are killing.

Paul Povolni (36:22.989)
Wow. Wow.

Tom Willis (36:28.098)
the power of coaching because they're making it mandatory, or they're making it punitive, or they're making it remedial, or they're bringing in a coach to fix one of their employees. That stuff never works effectively. It damages relationships, and it's a waste of time and money.

Paul Povolni (36:45.335)
Wow. Yeah. And I would assume that kind of coaching is also temporary because once that hammer is gone, once that, authority is gone, it just goes back into bad habits and bad cultural behavior. Right.

Tom Willis (37:00.014)
Yeah, and sometimes like doubly reinforced because it's like, that person has no idea what they're talking about. They don't have no idea how hard my job is. You know, they're delusional. They're a consultant. They don't get it. like, the person can like double down on their behavior.

Paul Povolni (37:03.025)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:18.263)
Yeah. Now, you know, part of, you know, I'm sure with the consulting or, or, or helping people is, you know, spotting patterns or spotting, habits, you know, what, what are some other negative habits or patterns that you spot or look for, that, are bad, bad culture or unhealthy culture.

Tom Willis (37:40.332)
Yeah, well, there's a lot of them is the short answer. We highlight 12 in the book, what we call the 12 cultural mindsets. And I mentioned a couple of them before. I'll just pick one as an example. And many organizations, you have really good people, right? They really want to do what's right. They want to help others. They're service oriented. The idea of servant leadership animates them. And we've worked with engineering firms, we worked with schools, we worked with healthcare. It doesn't matter.

You know, human beings fundamentally most want to do a good job. They mostly want to be helpful to others. And we tend to be pretty avoidant. You know, when things get a little dicey or a little tricky or, you know, we have a relationship issue, we tend to avoid it. And because we just, I don't want to go there. I know they're busy. I don't want to be mean. I don't want to micromanage. I don't want to do this. I don't want to hurt their feelings. You know, and so we avoid stuff, but then what do we do? We go gossip about them. We go talk about them. go.

Paul Povolni (38:38.105)
Hmm.

Tom Willis (38:39.789)
create drama, we assume nefarious intent, all of these pretty ugly underbelly things happen. And it's not because people do it on purpose. It's like what we gravitate to as human beings is we, it feels good to like go talk about somebody, which then creates another issue and another issue. you can see how these things sort of spiral. And we call it the vicious cycle, where they all sort of viciously reinforce each other and all of sudden.

Paul Povolni (38:55.874)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (39:08.29)
your culture is spiraling in the wrong direction. so avoidance is one example of many.

Paul Povolni (39:15.607)
Yeah, I love that. And so, you know, if, we were to, to, to play pretend for a minute and say, okay, you, you are walking into a job and maybe you've had these jobs, maybe you haven't, maybe we can just have a make believe one, but you're walking into a job. what would a typical day look like for you walking into maybe an unhealthy culture?

Tom Willis (39:40.639)
Like literally, what do we do?

Paul Povolni (39:42.347)
Yeah. What, what, what would that experience look like? So if somebody's trying to say, well, I, I don't know whether I have an unhealthy culture or I don't know whether I have a healthy one. I want to, you know, I want you as, as the, the, the expert to walk into a situation and describe what you would experience if you were walking into an unhealthy culture. And then we'll do the same kind of thing for walking into a healthy culture. What would your day look like if you were, as an employee, we're walking into a.

a situation where it was unhealthy. What would that look like? What were some of the, what were some of the signs that you would personally experience?

Tom Willis (40:16.364)
if you're an employee walking into a culture where it's not so hot, you know, because I like to try to get away from sort of binary, like healthy or unhealthy. The reality is every single organization, even the very best ones do some things that aren't terribly healthy. And even the most unhealthy cultures, quote unquote, do some things that are pretty healthy. So it's not either or it's really a mixture of all that. And it's like, where are we? If we're trying to climb the mountain of life,

Paul Povolni (40:19.842)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (40:36.685)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (40:45.582)
Um, it's more like, where are we? Are we at 2000 feet or are at 5,000 feet? And that organization that's really good is at 10,000 feet. So how do we get up there? How do we, how do we pursue better? And not because we're broken at 2000 feet. It's just, got, we got more growth to do. We got more learning to do. And so that's the first thing is to, is sort of in our mind, we try to frame it as this isn't good or bad. just is. And, and do you want to climb the next part of the mountain and do you need some help? Cause we can be your Sherpas in that regard.

Paul Povolni (41:00.814)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (41:09.463)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (41:15.65)
Now, if I'm an employee and I'm walking in, there's a thousand signs. If I don't like my job, I don't want to go on Mondays, that's a pretty good one. If I am afraid of talking to my boss about something, if I feel that sort of sickness in my gut, if I see people constantly bickering about each other, if I see my boss saying, well, I don't want to do it, but you know, the central office does, that's cowardice. So there's lots of challenges.

Paul Povolni (41:23.286)
You

Tom Willis (41:46.152)
that can sort of show up as a part of a culture that's maybe not so hot.

Paul Povolni (41:51.093)
Yeah, yeah. And, one of the things that I like to say too, is that culture is cultivated. And so the culture that you have is the culture that you've allowed to grow. you know, and it's, I see it kind of, you know, as a garden, you know, because, you know, you can have weeds that grow up. you can have fruit that grows up and you know, what you've allowed and what you've cultivated is what your culture has become. And so looking at what those weeds are and looking at what those healthy things are that.

that make positive growth is pretty important for a business to understand and look at. And do encourage you to get the book, because it is a lot more, there's a lot more stuff in there than we can cover even in just one conversation, because it is. Culture is such a key part of your business going to the next level and where it needs to go. And so, you know, if, as we wrap this up, what's one part of culture or what's one part of...

You know your book and and even the title of your book talk about that for a little bit Where did where did that title come from the great engagement?

Tom Willis (42:57.326)
Yeah, well, I don't know, people can see it, but it actually says the great resignation with resignation crossed out and then it says engagement. And then the subtitle is how CEOs create exceptional cultures. So that's really what the book is all about. And by the way, we were quite tickled when Ken Blanchard, who's sold like, I don't know, 30 million books around the world, sort of the guru of leadership in many ways, endorsed our book. You he said,

He's got a whole long paragraph in it, but he really talked about how this book will help you become a better leader. If you're serious about creating a better culture, this is a great book for you to read because it's really about servant leadership and action. So yeah, the title came from really that idea that coming out of COVID, there's a lot of people just frustrated with their jobs and quitting and switching jobs and resigning or worse, they quit, but they stay.

You know, they're checked out mentally, but they still stay there. And so we were trying to figure out like, how do we, how do we know, how do we help? Because we know what we have works. I mean, we've been doing it for 30 plus years. We, 95 % of our work is referrals from one CEO to another. How do we help? And so all of sudden, I was actually, Brad, my coauthor that came up with this idea of, you know, what's the antidote to resignation. It's engagement and people feel engaged in a purpose when they feel engaged in something that matters.

they're going to be animated, they're gonna wanna be there. And the resignation starts to dissipate, the desire to quit or leave starts to disappear. And it's true for us, all of us on a daily basis, frankly, there's days where I know I have to fly to California or I have to fly to Boston or I'm flying to Nashville, and I do not want to, I do not wanna get on airplane. I wanna stay home with my wife and my three kids and in those moments, I have to choose, am I going to sort of...

Paul Povolni (44:43.833)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (44:51.598)
be driven by fear and I don't want to and resignation or am I going to slow down and think about, this is a, what a gift. I'm flying down to Nashville to help folks who are, who are literally helping decrease the suicide rate in their community. Like that's pretty awesome. And what an honor it is to help an organization like that. And boom, all of a sudden I'm engaged again. It's like, okay, let's go, let's get on the plane. Let's go help them. So this happens for all of us as human beings. We have to nurture this.

Paul Povolni (45:06.041)
Wow, yeah, yeah.

Tom Willis (45:19.97)
Mindset sometimes every day sometimes once a week And to keep ourselves engaged keep ourselves focused. There's a great tool in the book called the Engaged life inventory. It's really simple, but it's a really great simple tool that takes you ten minutes five minutes, To complete and it will give you a sense for like literally how engaged of a life are you living and It can be a life changer if you slow down and really digest it

Paul Povolni (45:49.315)
So, you mentioned COVID, we're on the other side of it. It seems that it was just five years ago and in there, there's a couple of missing years for me at least. It's like, I can't believe it was five years ago that we started the spring break that never ended. And what happened to a couple of those years, I kind of missed it. But we had this time of when people were working from home.

And, you know, Zooms before COVID were kind of the weird, weird thing. We didn't do them that often. And when we did it, we tried to pretend that we're in some sort of a formal setting and then COVID we're all there on our PJs and casual. it's like, I'm not even pretending anymore. But it created this situation where people suddenly were working from home. And then after people started returning, semi back to normal, some people still stayed at home. Some people still.

you know, went back into the office. How does remote working or not working in the same building or the same space affect culture? And how do you have a healthy culture when you don't have people that actually even meet face to face?

Tom Willis (46:58.168)
Yeah, great question, Paul. It's, it's, is a lot harder, frankly, but it's very doable too. It's like, it's like putting a man on the moon, right? It's, very hard, but it was, it's doable. And as leaders, it just requires us to be that much more intentional, that much more conscious about the, am I nurturing? You know, my wife's a great example. She has a FinTech startup called Pocket Nest and her team is literally around the world. She's got a, a programmer in the Ukraine, right? Talk about a crazy time to have an employee.

Paul Povolni (47:27.278)
Yeah.

Tom Willis (47:28.426)
in a contractor in the Ukraine when there's a war going on. But she's done a phenomenal job of building a great culture within that team of people that really want to help each other and support each other. And a lot of it's because of her energy and her ability to kind of create that positive energy and momentum for folks. And she's also very candid with people, very real with them. So there's not a short answer to that, but the...

The short answer is don't blame the virtual world if your culture is not good. It makes it harder. I don't want to misstep or misspeak that. It definitely makes it harder. There's no doubt about it. But it's not because of the virtual world that your culture is struggling. It's likely because you're not leading effectively.

Paul Povolni (48:19.072)
wow. And so what are some things that you could do to lead a remote culture?

Tom Willis (48:27.002)
I don't know where to start. It gets back to some of the foundational elements here, right? Like it's what is, not the mission statement, but what mission are we on? What is the purpose? Why are we doing this? And you have to remind yourself and your team pretty much every single day. It was a great quip from Zig Ziglar. He talked about how...

Paul Povolni (48:28.374)
Hahaha.

Tom Willis (48:52.216)
People complain that the effects of leadership and inspiration don't last for very long, right? Like the motivation doesn't last for very long. He says, well, neither do the effects of taking a shower, but we recommend it daily. And so as leaders, we have to lead every single day. We have to remind ourselves and our team members why we're doing what we're doing pretty much every single day. That's probably the, I got 50 other tips, but that's probably the biggest.

Paul Povolni (49:06.883)
Yep.

Paul Povolni (49:21.335)
And so what's the best way to get those tips from you? From the book, do you have any other way for people to get a hold of you, to communicate with you, to kind of join your world?

Tom Willis (49:30.176)
Absolutely, yeah, pretty active on LinkedIn. Thomas Willis at Phoenix Performance Partners. We have an awesome newsletter that one of our business partners puts together called the Culture Eats Everything newsletter. If you go to our website, you can sign up for that. It's free. Phoenixperform.com. Phoenix, like the city, perform.com. And then obviously the book, know, Pick Up the Great Engagement. It's on Amazon. It's on Audible. It's on pretty much any platform you can.

you can find that's always a great place to start. And if you're, if you're out there as a leader, you're a CEO, maybe, and you're thinking about how can I improve my culture? You know, whether it's working with us or somebody else, take some time at the back of our book and read through that section about results. Because if you're going to hire somebody to help you make sure that they're going to help you produce results. Because too many consultants out there will take you through their leadership development program, and they get paid whether it works or not. And

Paul Povolni (50:27.239)
Yeah. Right.

Tom Willis (50:27.842)
That's not the kind of partner you want. Slow down and find somebody that's actually gonna produce results and put their butt on the line for producing results.

Paul Povolni (50:35.809)
Yeah. And so as we wrap this up, what's a head smack or a question that you wish I'd asked you about?

Tom Willis (50:50.176)
covered a lot probably done a great job asking lots of lots of good questions.

Paul Povolni (50:51.815)
Hahaha.

Tom Willis (50:57.742)
I think now it's 2025, there's a lot going on. It's a challenging time, especially if you're in the world of DC, right? And the world's not slowing down. just seems like we're, every year it's like a little more crazy, a little more something's going on. And so I think probably the one thing that's been really helpful for me in the last couple of years in particular is this idea of radical acceptance. radical acceptance isn't just accepting something.

as it is, like, it is what it is. It's radically accepting it, like you chose it, like it's supposed to happen. So as an example, right before we were about to release our book, literally after 20 years of helping thousands of authors, we were one day away from getting the final copy of our book approved, the cover and everything. The company went bankrupt with thousands of our dollars, right? And so we didn't have a book, we lost money.

And I was like, but within a few hours, frankly, I was able to like coach myself down and say, okay, I don't know why, but this is supposed to happen. And then sure enough, like the next six months, all these amazing things happened that wouldn't have happened otherwise. It's not easy. This is super hard. Totally not easy. But if you think about it, in fact, Harvard has studied this with leaders. They found that the best CEOs are the ones that can radically accept something.

Paul Povolni (52:14.947)
Wow. Wow.

Tom Willis (52:26.742)
It's not resignation, it's not giving up. It's just accept it because that's the foundation, the starting point for improving it, for doing something about it. So that's a thought, I guess, for everyone to consider is like, instead of complaining about things or getting frustrated or letting your energies get wasted, like just slow down and say, okay, I don't know why, but why is this happening? And just ask yourself, maybe there's a reason, maybe there's an upside.

Paul Povolni (52:35.63)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (52:51.415)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that goes back to even biblical principles of all things work together for the good. Not all things are good. The Bible doesn't say all things are good. Some things really suck. you know, if we trust the process and trust God that all things work together for the good, and, you know, there's always going to be something at the end that we know that, you know, in the middle of it, we didn't like it, but maybe at the end, we can understand a little better when it all comes down to it.

Tom Willis (53:20.46)
Yeah, well, since you brought up one of my favorite subjects, I'll just follow you there. You there's a great quote, again, from your friend, your fellow Aussie, Matthew Kelly. says, God is more committed to your happiness and flourishing than anybody, but getting what you want doesn't make you happy. You know that, and God never forgets it. What is good for you is better than what you want.

Paul Povolni (53:45.559)
Wow. Wow. That's a great way to end this. I love that. Absolutely love that. Well, man, Tom, this has been amazing. I mean, you've definitely shared some head smack moments. think people, if they look at their organization, if they look at how they're doing things, it'll definitely make them think about a little more. And I encourage you to read the book. You know, we, we only scratched the surface when it came to this discussion because it's such a huge and critical topic.

I think for any size organization, even if you're just a startup, is making some decisions on what kind of a business you're going to be and what kind of a culture you're going to build. And so I do encourage you to grab the book. Like I said, I've got the Kindle, I've got the hardback. I'm looking forward to diving into both to read that and then probably share some more things and maybe we'll even do a follow-up once I've had a chance to read through it and chat again. Thank you so much, Tom. This has been amazing.

Tom Willis (54:41.024)
Yeah, thank you, Paul. It's been a lot of fun. Appreciate it.