Ulyses Osuna / CEO. PR Strategist. Founder Influencer Press

Many entrepreneurs waste time and money chasing media coverage that looks impressive but fails to generate real business results.

Imagine having a strategic PR approach that not only builds credibility but consistently converts visibility into revenue and growth.

Today's guest, Ulyses Osuna, reveals his proven framework for transforming media exposure into actual business results, showing why most entrepreneurs have been approaching PR completely backwards.

Ulyses Osuna is the founder of Influencer Press and a strategic PR expert who specializes in building personal brands for entrepreneurs and industry leaders. Rejecting traditional PR approaches, he's developed a unique methodology that focuses on transforming media exposure into tangible business results. His contrarian views on paid versus earned media have helped reshape how entrepreneurs approach personal branding and media strategy.

5 Key Takeaways:

• The difference between earned and paid media—and why both matter.
• Why speed and control are critical in PR.
• How to refine your personal brand message for maximum impact.
• The truth about credibility and transparency in PR.
• Actionable steps to snowball small PR wins into bigger opportunities.

Instagram Link: @Ulyses

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (03:29.308)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack Smacked podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I am excited to have another misfit with me. Ulysses is with me and he is a PR strategist and founder of Influencer Press, specializing in building personal brands for entrepreneurs and industry leaders. I am looking forward to having a great conversation with him. Welcome Ulysses, how you doing man?

Ulyses Osuna (03:50.904)
Good, I'm doing good. Thank you for having me on the show.

Paul Povolni (03:53.094)
Hey, thanks for being on. Excited to talk to you about PR and personal brands. But before we head in that direction, I do want to know a little bit about your origin story. What's the origin of Ulysses? Where did it all get started? And you can go back as far as you want to go.

Ulyses Osuna (04:08.972)
Yeah. So, when I was first getting started, I initially, got started doing website design. and I don't know if you've ever done website design, but I think it's very much like, like branding to where clients, you know, don't like a font size. They don't like that specific color. there's just too many back and forth. And when that happens, it's just, it just wasn't for me. You know, I want to be able to provide something that's like clear cut, that doesn't necessarily have too many revisions.

Paul Povolni (04:18.778)
yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (04:38.35)
because something like that, that takes a lot of your time and you know, I wasn't getting paid a lot. it just wasn't the right business model for me. So, you know, from that I was, doing like a little internship with Neil Patel. It was about a month long. It wasn't that long. and I was very grateful, because of that, I was able to write for some publications at that time. I wrote for like, I was like 19 at the time and I was already writing for the Huffington post success magazine and entrepreneur.com. So I got very lucky.

Paul Povolni (04:43.496)
Yeah

Paul Povolni (05:07.378)
So where'd you learn writing?

Ulyses Osuna (05:09.522)
nowhere. I, I just, copywriting, know, people, people write on Facebook. and one of the things that I guess, one of the ways that I did learn to better write is I was, I would read Neil Patel's blog every single day. So like every single day, it was kind of like my ritual. was like my Bible. because at the time, like he was the guy that I wanted to be like, so I even printed out every single blog post that he ever did and make him made him into books. and I would read those.

Paul Povolni (05:11.452)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (05:38.023)
Wow.

Ulyses Osuna (05:39.126)
So, you know, I guess I learned a little bit of the style that way. but yeah, I, I'm, I'm not a copywriter by trade. I just got lucky by, you know, being at the right place at the right time. Started writing for those publications. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I was also very focused. Like I w wasn't listening to everybody else. I was just honed in on Neil Patel, what he does, what he teaches. And a lot of that was SEO, you know, blogging, writing. So I was,

Paul Povolni (05:51.368)
will end up absorbing the right things.

Ulyses Osuna (06:08.916)
It was like an easy transition, you know, from one thing to the next.

Paul Povolni (06:10.992)
Yeah. Do you think that's a good, good head, head smack for somebody that might be frustrated because they're doing the very opposite of that thing where they're just listening to so many different voices, so many different influences, so many different outlets, so many different gurus and experts that they get locked up and don't know how to move forward.

Ulyses Osuna (06:33.366)
Yeah, I would say right now there's more noise than there ever was, especially when I got started. So, and it's very hard to determine like who do you listen to? The easiest way to determine like who you should be listening to is do they have the type of business that you want? And like, are they sharing things that can help you get there? If you're trying to get into crypto, trying to get into AI, trying to get into all this other stuff, it's hard. Like you're probably not going to beat somebody that's dedicating themselves.

full time to just one thing. So I highly recommend just listen to one person that you respect, that you know gets good results and that you want that type of either life or business and just go all in that way. Because it's very hard to lose if you go all in in one thing, but it's very easy to lose if you try to go all in on everything.

Paul Povolni (07:21.67)
Right. Right. And one of the things that I've said too is, until you have your own voice become a really good echo. Like, you know, and so, you know, it's good to find these people that inspire you. Like you mentioned, Neil Patel was an inspiration for you. you know, until you found your own thing, until you became Ulysses and you knew who you were is you are being a good echo of what he was doing. You're learning from him, trying to imitate him, trying to do as much.

Ulyses Osuna (07:45.826)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (07:48.904)
like him because he was a great person that was doing great things and had a great influence and impact. And so you'll be in a good echo of him until you kind of found your own vibe. Now doing the web stuff, was that your first thing like out of school? mean, you said you were around 19 or younger.

Ulyses Osuna (08:04.3)
Yeah, yeah, because I was in college at the time. so websites was like the very first thing that I was, you know, getting started in. I even tried, you know, making cartoon photos of people. So I would hire people from Fiverr to make a cartoon picture of somebody and then sell that for like 25 bucks. but you know, none of that really like stuck. it wasn't until somebody told me that I could be like a broker of sorts where somebody has a story. I know the people in the media because I'm already writing there.

Paul Povolni (08:06.705)
Okay.

Paul Povolni (08:20.658)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (08:32.782)
And all I have to do is just make an introduction. So at first I didn't believe the guy. I was like, there's just no way somebody would pay for that. And he told me, he's like, try it, you know, charge, you know, hire ticket and try that. So I did it. I did it like the next week or two weeks after that, I sold my very first one. It was basically getting somebody onto entrepreneur.com. All I had to do for $2,000 was introduce my client to the writer that I knew that talked about, you know, what my client wanted to be featured about, make the introduction.

And it worked and that's it. I didn't have to write the article. I didn't have to do anything. And I made the easiest $2,000, like I ever made initially. And that's when I was like, all right, this is, this is the business model that I want to go with.

Paul Povolni (09:13.776)
Yeah. And how soon was that after that? Was that during the Neil Patel time or was that after that? Okay.

Ulyses Osuna (09:20.066)
That was after, but it wasn't too far after. I was still in college and I dropped out. so I dropped the only, the only like business class that I didn't fail was business. everything else I failed. So, you know, all the prereq stuff. and I, I told my parents, I came home one day and I'm like, look, I want to try this digital marketing thing. like give me, you know, some time. So like live here, do this. And if it doesn't work, like we'll go back, I'll go back to school.

Paul Povolni (09:32.904)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (09:50.414)
So I made a deal with them and I think it was like six months maybe and I made my first $2,000 and then from there I was like, right, $2,000 for a 19 year old at the time is a pretty good chunk of change.

Paul Povolni (10:00.784)
Yeah, yeah. So what pulled you into marketing?

Ulyses Osuna (10:06.386)
it was one of those like, scammy, would say internet, marketing, you know, videos where they tell you like, Hey, you know, look over my shoulder. I'm going to teach you how to make a million dollar business. You're to have the lifestyle, the house, you know, the wife, the kids, all of that. So that got me started because it, I live in, I lived at the time in grand view where, know, there was only like 11,000 people that lived there. so you don't see like Lamborghini is you don't see big houses. You don't see.

Paul Povolni (10:21.434)
Yeah, yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (10:35.318)
any of type of stuff. immediately when I was like, you maybe, maybe this could be for me. I went all in.

Paul Povolni (10:41.638)
Yeah. So where did the, the desire for entrepreneurship come from? Was that a family thing or is that a new thing for you or like, did that influence? Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (10:47.822)
It was, it was definitely new. Yeah, it was definitely new. think, you know, I was young at the time. So all the things that he was promising me, were things that I wanted. You know, I, when you're 18 or I got started like at like 17. So when I was 17, I know for sure. Like that I wanted a good house, a beautiful family, nice cars, right? All the materialistic items. and even back then, like, you don't know what you're going to do. And that's kind of scares the shit out of you a little bit.

Paul Povolni (10:57.734)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (11:10.929)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (11:17.67)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (11:17.99)
so because of that, that made me, that video made me realize like, all right, I don't know exactly what I want to do, but I know this is a life that I want. so this is what I have to pursue this online thing. so.

Paul Povolni (11:30.182)
Yeah. Now, did you get, did you get people backing you up? Because entrepreneurship is kind of risky, you know, in some, you know, for some people it's like, you know, get a real job, you know, with, with a 401k and health insurance and stuff. What was that like to, to decide to do entrepreneurship instead of doing a regular job?

Ulyses Osuna (11:36.156)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (11:47.662)
Well, for a couple of years, I didn't make any money. And like all I was doing is just soaking up as much knowledge as I could, learning how to code, like, you know, doing all this stuff, thinking that I was learning or actually, you know, applying, but I wasn't. And no, like my parents initially didn't, they didn't understand. So because they didn't understand, they didn't support me on something that seemed fictional. So the only thing that really saved me was me making that deal with my parents because

Paul Povolni (12:11.154)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (12:17.208)
The good thing about like my parents is they keep their word. So it's like, all right, I have X amount of time, which I had a year, which was good. It's a long time, to make something happen. And if it didn't work in it within that year, all right, I'd go back to school. You know, I, I live, I live under the roof, so I'm going to do, you know, what they say. so.

Paul Povolni (12:20.412)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:28.552)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:36.024)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's awesome. I think, I think for parents sometimes even just telling their kids, like, you know, if you're going to go out and fail, I'd rather you fail with me close by and me being able to support you and help you and let you be adventurous and, try things and, you know, give things a shot until you find out exactly what you want to do. I think that's pretty awesome that they did that. Yeah. And so, you know, you, yeah, I mean, that, is a blessing for parents to

Ulyses Osuna (12:57.89)
Yeah. Very blessed.

Paul Povolni (13:03.302)
be understanding and willing to give you that opportunity to just try. And if you fail, fail you, at least you're still with them. But if you succeed, well done, good for you. so what, go ahead. No, go ahead.

Ulyses Osuna (13:15.512)
Cause not everybody, sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, yeah, not everybody gets that chance, you know? Sometimes you don't get to make a deal with your parents. Like it's just what they say.

Paul Povolni (13:20.721)
Yeah, yeah.

Right. Right. It's yeah, you just got to make it on your own. And so, you you said you, your first introduction to marketing was a little, little scammy. So when was, what was your first introduction to good marketing?

Ulyses Osuna (13:37.122)
Good marketing was learning about Neil for sure. because, you know, till this day, I don't think he has, he has a pretty, he has a pretty good reputation, you know, like around all the marketers. and at the time he was known as one of the, would say one of the best, I could be biased, but you know, he, he was definitely good marketing because a lot of his stuff was like, okay, analytics looking at, know, what type, what type of people are converting.

Paul Povolni (13:39.677)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (13:53.092)
Hahaha.

Ulyses Osuna (14:03.992)
how to increase your landing page conversion rates, how to capture emails on your website, like how to see where people are landing on your website. There's a bunch of things that he was teaching that was actual marketing and he wasn't necessarily selling a dream, a pipeline dream.

Paul Povolni (14:15.218)
Yeah.

Yeah. So was it, was it, did you have to get over a lot of stuff or did you feel it was like a instantaneous conversion? You know, cause you know, if you, if you kind of started off with the, the scammy, you know, stuff, you know, for some people it's hard to get that out of their system. Was it, whether it was there some time that it took for it to get out of your system or was it like an instant thing like, no, this is what I want to be a part of.

Ulyses Osuna (14:40.674)
So the thing that I learned about with the scammy kind of like video that I saw is it gave me what I wanted in life. Like it gave me the vision of what I knew I wanted to accomplish. I just didn't know how. And I didn't have like, was 17 when I first saw it. So I definitely didn't have the five, 10 grand that he was wanting to like me look over his shoulder, learn how he built his business. So I knew already that I couldn't go that route, whatever route that was going to take.

so the only thing that I could do is research what that guy was talking about, which is online marketing. And the funny thing is when you type in online marketing, I don't know if it happens still, but, if you type in online marketing, which, know, is it in ca it in, it encompasses everything from paid marketing to email marketing, everything, Neil Patel ranks both first and third for two different websites for online marketing. I don't know if it's still the case, but I remember when I was doing that.

Paul Povolni (15:29.03)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (15:36.422)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (15:37.76)
He was the only one. So if I typed in online marketing, he showed up multiple times. He's the guy that I'm to learn from. So he was the method. He was the how. and, you know, the other guy that I kind of like, you know, watch the video of, he just gave me the vision of what I wanted in life.

Paul Povolni (15:43.292)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (15:52.784)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you, you've started working there and then during your time there, you've found out about this introducing people to other people and making money out of that. Where did that training come from? Or was that just somebody suggesting it? And then you just started learning that more and more.

Ulyses Osuna (16:09.536)
Yeah, just somebody suggesting it. And you know, at first, like, it was, it was a lot harder because it was just all organic. it was a little easier at the time because there was no competition. So, you know, a lot of the big names at the time, like, you know, Ed Milet didn't have any press until we worked with him. there was this, a lot of people that did not have any press whatsoever. So I was the only one that was doing that at the time or one of the only ones, I don't want to say the only one, but, so it was easy to get business, but what I didn't learn.

Paul Povolni (16:37.298)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (16:38.572)
And what I didn't know how to do is run an actual business. you know, with business encompasses, you know, marketing, sales, fulfillment, finance, like there's a lot of different areas in business. have to learn. You cannot just be good at one thing. Right. so my thing was easy to sell, but when I grew in more and more clientele, a lot of the fulfillment became much harder because it was just me. And when I would hire somebody, I would have to train them, but I didn't know how to train really well.

Paul Povolni (16:50.353)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (17:06.678)
So, you know, fulfillment wasn't necessarily the best. So there was, there was like a few, would say maybe a couple of years where I was really trying to learn how can I fulfill every single time when somebody hires us. Cause at that time we were getting a lot of, a lot of charge backs because, know, it taking months to deliver like anything. and what people don't understand about organic PR is a lot of the decision, whether you get featured or not is not based on me. It is based on that person to see if they want to have you.

Paul Povolni (17:24.486)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (17:36.206)
For example, like with you, it is based on you if I can even get a client on your show. You know, if somebody else wants to get on your show, like I can't control that, they can't control that. The only decision maker is somebody that is not under my payroll, right? So it becomes a little bit difficult to get people featured, especially when you get a ton of clientele, because now you have to start pitching the same people, different clients. So.

It took me a while for sure to learn. Okay. What is a model that I can do to always, you know, provide and make sure that we, you know, deliver a great experience, all that, because it's also not just about delivering the result. It's also about delivering a good, a good customer experience. So I learned that a long time ago too. It's like, if you go to, are you a steak type of guy? Do you like steak?

Paul Povolni (18:24.324)
absolutely.

Ulyses Osuna (18:26.05)
So I, if you go to a restaurant, right, and you have the best steak ever, they like, it's phenomenal. You'd love it, but the waiter never comes to like give you the check. The waiter never comes to give you your water. The waiter never comes to check up on you. doesn't matter how much you like the steak. Like you're probably not going to go back because of the bad experience. Let's say you had to wait an hour to two hours to get your food. Like it doesn't matter if you get the result, the actual tangible. What matters is both of them. And that's how you create, you know, a raving fan. So

Paul Povolni (18:44.296)
I'm Ryan.

Ulyses Osuna (18:54.658)
You know, business encompasses all of that. It's not just, I can get you the PR. I know my zone of genius. I can do this. It's all of it.

Paul Povolni (19:02.714)
I love that. I love that. I love the way you explain that. so, so talk about that as, as we transitioned to talk about PR and personal branding, talk a little bit about that experience when it comes down to somebody building a personal brand, when it comes down to, you know, even a business trying to get out there, get it, get their brand out there, break those two down in what a, a experience would be like and how to look at that in a, in the right way.

Ulyses Osuna (19:30.644)
Yeah. So one thing is, I always take a look at what's the end result. So, you know, there's a lot of people in PR that they're trying to sell you specific placements. And what happens is the customer you're getting are just window shoppers. They're just checking to see pricing at that point. So you're just another person that offers the same thing that they can basically buy from. So like there's no value there. And that's because most people are selling the deliverable and not the end result.

So for me, know, what's a better transformation for a client, them getting the specific placement that they want or getting the result that they would want from a placement that they think is going to get them the result. It's always going to be the end result. So I'm not selling a, you know, Forbes, I'm not selling a specific placement type of media company. I'm selling a result that they end up hiring us for. So, you know, for us, although we do article placements,

It's not the core thing. It's actually one thing out of like, a list of like 10 things that somebody gets when they get a package from us. So we try to show them an ecosystem instead of the one thing. Right. and because most of the time there's, there's just so many people now, like I always say, like everybody now has testimonials, right? It's like a standard. It's no longer something that like stands out for, for many people. So if everybody has testimonials,

Paul Povolni (20:49.544)
Right. Right.

Ulyses Osuna (20:55.394)
then it's no longer the thing that's going to get you past, you know, that that's going to help you stand out. Right. So if everybody has that, how are you going to stand out? How are you still going to get the result of what a testimonial gives you? Right. The same thing applies with PR. If everybody and their brother and their sister and their kids have PR of some sort, they have media of some sort, it no longer provides you the result that you wanted to provide you. So if that's the case, it is useless unless it is utilized. So

for us, don't utilize, we don't, you know, just provide the PR and that's it. Like I can guarantee you if you give a client the PR piece, that's great. They'll probably love it. And all it's going to be is a trophy on their website. They put a scene on or maybe on their social media and that's it. That's all it's going to do for them. Make them feel good a little bit, you know, and that's good, but it's actually not going to provide any sort of transformation whatsoever. But, yeah, go ahead.

Paul Povolni (21:42.002)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (21:49.948)
So talk, so talk, well go ahead and I'll let you finish your thought.

Ulyses Osuna (21:53.934)
But if you provide a client with an actual transformation, so for example, they don't just have articles, but they're now getting on shows, they're now getting on stages. Everything on Google is pointing to things that they have done and they do. Now it's a little bit different because on stages you can sell and you can get clientele. On podcasts, if you get on bigger podcasts, even if you get on smaller podcasts, that's always gonna rank. It's always gonna show up on Google. You can clip those, you can utilize those.

There's just so many things that you can and should be doing that other people that are higher level actually do and use that shows it's not about the PR itself. It's not. It's about building credibility, building a personal brand, building an ecosystem. So that way it doesn't matter where somebody sees you. You're showing them exactly what you want them to see. So yeah.

Paul Povolni (22:43.848)
So in 2024, does PR mean something different than what it used to mean?

Ulyses Osuna (22:50.686)
I would say in our little internet marketing bubble, yes, because in our bubble PR is seen as as bad. Like there's a, there's like this, I don't know why I laugh about this, but you know, there's, although I love the people that are trying to do right by saying like, Hey, get earned media and get earned media only. I highly disagree with that. Like highly disagree with that. I've done the earned media for years. I know what it does, but I've also done the paid media for years.

Paul Povolni (23:19.771)
What is earned media?

Ulyses Osuna (23:19.886)
I know what it does. So earned media is where you don't pay somebody or you don't pay like a publication. You don't do anything. There's no barters. There's no, nothing. You get on there out of your own merit because you pitched, you know, somebody and they liked your story. The issue with this is people are making the correlation between earned media as real media, as legitimate media, but that's not the case because I can guarantee you there are so many people that are high level that

like our, and I'm not even talking about gurus. I'm just saying people that nobody has heard about companies that are doing phenomenal things that have not gotten earned media because they just don't know how or because, you know, people don't like their story. Again, it's the, the, the reason why somebody would feature somebody else in earned media is because they like the story. If I'm going to bank my clients, you know, the amazing things that they've done,

on somebody else's liking of their story or of their business, why? Like, I just don't see how that's useful to anybody. It doesn't mean it's real. I have to bank on it. And we've seen this so like in the past few years, we've seen how the media has actually started running. Like with, you know, a lot of biases against, you know, Donald Trump, lot of biases against so many people that it's like I don't I'm sorry, I'm not going to trust these individuals.

or their opinions about whether our clients should be featured on that platform or not. I've had the major, sorry, I've had the main editor in chief at entrepreneur.com years ago tell me that my client would never get featured on their platform and that they would never get any earned media, the best that they would be able to get would be local media. And what happened? Instead, we got them on a TV.

And this is all organic. We've got them on a TV. We've got them on entrepreneur.com. We got them a ton of media placements, podcasts, all that stuff. So should I, you know, just listen to what that guy had to say because of his authority, because of his badge? No, like I'm not going to bank it on people, especially like I'm just a realist at this moment in time. The media is not credible. They haven't been for a while. there's a lot of biases.

Paul Povolni (25:33.307)
Yeah, yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (25:40.798)
And it does not mean just because you have somebody that liked your story mean it's real and it's legitimate. Now, most of the time it is, but it's not always. And for the people, like I can give you an example, like a client of mine, Marlee. So Marlee Brodsky, she, her company helps with patient safety, patient advocacy, all of that. Okay. It's something that she's doing very well in the world. It's something that's very needed.

Paul Povolni (25:47.111)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (26:08.19)
There's too many people that go to the doctors that have no idea what the doctor is telling them and they come back home confused They don't know what's going on. Nothing happens and because of that they just have a bad experience If somebody doesn't like her story or if we pitch and it takes you know months to get something one piece of story out there Or two or whatever might might be I'm I wasted so much time Trying to do the earned media route to get her solution

Paul Povolni (26:33.448)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (26:35.914)
out to thousands of individuals that could have seen it, and could have used it to actually help their grand, their, their grandmothers, grand, you know, grandparents. so I just don't see, I see where they're coming from and the stigma around it is because too many people have abused paid PR, but I can't get behind it in terms of like, it's not, it's not something that shouldn't be used. I 100 % think it should be used. It accelerates earned media, if anything.

One more thing that I want to cover with that is, you know, the Marley story, like she utilized the press that we ended up giving her, which you should be, you should be utilizing it, to now she's going to present to one of the hospitals because they're interested in rolling out Med Companion to those 15,000 patients. So I, you know, for like, to me, it's like, okay, what's more important?

Paul Povolni (27:24.273)
Wow.

Ulyses Osuna (27:30.434)
doing the right way, earned media, trying to pitch them for the story or whatnot, which I'm sure she could have gotten, or do I care more about speed and getting what she does out there as quick as possible so that way more people can utilize it so it benefits more people.

Paul Povolni (27:46.852)
So in the, the escape, in a, landscape of, of getting attention, know, you've got organic, you've got, and then earned is, is related to that and then paid, relate those three and you started talking about speed to talk about when, when one is preferred over the other, or are they all preferred at the same time? Like what's, what's kind of, for somebody entering into a space or trying to build a personal brand, what's, what's a route that they need to consider?

Ulyses Osuna (27:54.776)
Paid. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:16.2)
that will take them to where they want to go.

Ulyses Osuna (28:18.99)
That's a great question. So I wouldn't do paid for everything. There's many things that you probably should not do paid for. For example, like there's a lot of podcasts that take payment to essentially have you onto their show. Now, sometimes it makes sense because of the audience and who they are and the people that you're going to get in front of, or if you want to connect with that person, we've done that before. We have clients that have paid, I'm not going to name names, but big podcasters to be onto their show.

but for the mo for the majority of part, you should not be, you shouldn't be paying it. Right. and I understand why you should, people don't want to pay for press is because there's biases involved, things like that, but there's ways that you can do it legally. So number one is if you paid the publication themselves, it's a sponsored article. So you're not what I'm not advocating for is because I got in trouble for this a long time ago, too. I wrote about it a long time ago, but basically.

You should not be paying writers at these publications. You should not be paying. You shouldn't. should not be bartering with these writers at publications and you should not be giving them gifts because anything that creates a bias towards that article being put out is illegal. So don't do that. I just want to make sure that that's clear. I got my ass handed to me eight years ago when I was doing it. So don't do that. Now, is that different from you paying a TV station?

Paul Povolni (29:33.946)
Wow, yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (29:46.336)
a couple hundred dollars for a sponsored TV, like ad. Yes, it's a hundred percent different because it's a sponsored thing that you're doing direct with the network. Same thing with the publications. If you pay them directly, then again, you can do that, right? Because it's a sponsored, it's an advertorial. Do not do it under the table though for specific writers, because that's not, you can't do that. now, the question that you were getting to about like, w know what should they pay or like, what's the route?

I would 100 % take the route of, paying your local news station a couple hundred dollars, maybe like, you know, two, $300, whatever they might charge, to do a like 10 minute TV segment. The reason why is because, you know, not everybody's going to dive into a 45 minute podcast about you to like learn about you, but they might watch a five minute, 10 minute TV segment about you to learn more about what you do. Now the story that you do that you have doesn't make it any less legitimate just because you paid for an advertorial.

I mean, people do that all the time with commercials and things like that. You're just getting it out there quicker. So I would recommend that because you can utilize that to then pitch, you know, let's say podcasts. You can use that to then pitch speaking engagements. You can then use that to, you know, pitch organically for earned media if you wanted to with the publications. I do recommend in paying for paid placements for articles. And I'd recommend that for two reasons. Number one, speed. Number two is control. So for speed, many times with traditional media with earned media,

Because we're waiting on that other person, it could take months. It could take, you know, maybe a couple of weeks. It could be however long it might be until that person decides they're ready to go ahead and publish it. Because again, they're doing you that favor. They don't owe you anything. They don't owe you diddly squat. And then control, when you do that, the writer has the full control of whatever they want to put inside of that article when they're interviewing your client or whatever that might look like. So you might not always have the full control. So if they publish something,

that barely has you in it and it took you three months. Actually, I'm exaggerating. It took you a month and a half and they published it and you only have like a little blurb. Was that really worth the time? To me, it's not. If I pay for a placement, I now get speed because they're going to put it in priority. I'm paying for it. And number two, I get control because it's an advertorial.

Paul Povolni (31:56.904)
Right, right.

Ulyses Osuna (32:10.316)
Obviously I got to follow within those guidelines. can't make things up. I have to, you know, ensure that I have things to back it up, all that stuff, right? Which I think is normal. When I'm talking about this, I hope people think that this is normal, that you should be doing that, shouldn't be, you know, manipulating it. then you now have control over it and you now get your own image. You now maybe get to control the headline. You now get to control the article, all of it. So now when people, know, when people look you up, if it ranks, they might not read the entire article, but they might see your image.

Paul Povolni (32:23.515)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (32:39.362)
They might see exactly what you put for the subtitle. They might put, you know, see what you put for the headline. So we're controlling what people see that way. So you get speed and control. So, you know, that's that's why I recommend doing that. Now, I only recommend doing that for smaller mid-tier to like lower tier publications because that's where you can get the actual control. It doesn't become too expensive, so on and so forth. But that's what I would recommend.

Paul Povolni (32:46.215)
Right.

Paul Povolni (33:03.782)
Yeah. And so, so if I understood it right, organic is more if you have time and no money and, you don't have as much control. mean, to, to grow your business, to get out there, to get attention and things like that. And then, paid is if you have more money than time and you want more control and you want to be able to get it out there, in, a faster way, you know, you, you don't, you don't have the time. want to speed things up. The organic route is a slower route.

less expensive, you if you don't have the money, but you have the time, you can go organic. can, you know, maybe you'll go viral. Maybe not, you know, you'll get attention. Maybe not. You don't have as much control. but the paid route, the, third tier is, know, with more control. And if you have the money and you don't have the time, it's a great route to get out there a lot faster. And then the, earned is really, different to both of those. And the earned is.

you know, your reputation, your offer, your solutions, getting those out there and you might get attention if, know, people might see you, but using those two routes, organic or paid is a way to get that out there. because earned isn't, just cause you're good at it doesn't mean that people are going to know about it. Right. Did I get that right? Is that a good summary?

Ulyses Osuna (34:22.572)
Yes, 100%. And just to clarify, like we do both. use them every time we take on a client, we do a mix of both. What can we take out? What can we put out there that's fast that we know we can do that's gonna help us get more earned media? So that's the route that we take really. It's like, okay, we do a lot of paid media upfront. We get those wins. We utilize those wins to get a lot of earned media. But yeah, yeah, you nailed it. You nailed it down.

Paul Povolni (34:48.168)
So when it comes to the credibility, the earned has a lot to do with credibility, reputation, what you offer, is it relevant, and all of that stuff. So talk a little bit about that earned and credibility and why that's so critical in today's culture.

Ulyses Osuna (35:04.792)
So I would, you know, I think that's where a big misconception is. Cause in our internet, you know, like marketing bubble, they, that's what they correlated with. Earned media means credibility. But in reality it's because yes, those accolades, whatever, you they are, you pitch them or maybe the story and you got earned media. So it's legitimate as in you sent in a pitch, they'd like the pitch. They want to promote you. That's great. But.

If I was to say, know, like a Tony Robbins, you know, if he paid for an article placement, does that mean he's like he didn't earn it?

Paul Povolni (35:46.713)
Right, right. Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (35:47.37)
I don't think he didn't earn it. I think he earned it in his business. think, you know, going back to my Marley situation, like, do you think she, I think she earns it. Right. just because, she didn't do it the way that they associate it with doesn't mean that they did not or don't earn that media placement or don't deserve it. would say. So, that that's the, that's the difference that I would, that's the thing that like twists me up a little bit, you know, because.

Paul Povolni (35:50.856)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (36:17.084)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (36:17.73)
I understand the stigma though. It's like people have that because there's a lot of people, there's bad actors that have abused paid article placements. They pay it. They just want to get their, you know, their, their business featured and it's them in a Lambo, you know, like, you know, smoking a cigar or whatever it is. and that's why people have a bad connotation of it, you know? and. You know, I used to promote people like that. I just, I just did, you know,

But now it's a little bit different because I do vet my clients more. And obviously I want to make sure that we work with impactful clientele, things like that. But I wouldn't associate credibility with earned media because I would associate the credibility part with the person and their individual, their company, if they earned it that way. The organic or the paid, to me, is just a method.

Paul Povolni (36:59.569)
Yeah, okay.

Ulyses Osuna (37:14.158)
There just two different methods that you can utilize. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:14.852)
Right. Right. Right. So when it comes to credibility, what are some things that, what are some other things that people need to consider or be mindful of where it could hurt them as a personal brand when they're trying to grow?

Ulyses Osuna (37:29.87)
So number one is be truthful because if not, like the internet is one place that they have the best executives in the world, right? So like number one, be truthful. Don't make claims that are not true. Like don't do any of type of stuff because although you might think it's great in the beginning, it can ruin your reputation. So all you got, what I say is like PR's organized truth.

Paul Povolni (37:41.405)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (37:58.262)
So there are things that you have done in your life that if organized can be positioned really well. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean we're creating things. That doesn't mean we're making things up. That doesn't mean, you know, any of type of stuff. It just means you're including things that you that we for sure should include and you're positioning it inside of the article in a way that gives you an edge. For example, and because when people hear that, sometimes they can think of like, you you might be, you know, manipulating it or manufacturing it or whatever. But that's not the case.

In every business, people have positioning, right? What positions you different in the market versus somebody else. Now, in this case, you can take any angle. Like for my, for my PR business, since I'm a fan of paid placements, somebody else can completely take the other route of, and the other angle would be like paid placements or the worst. Don't do them. They're not credible. They're not ethical. My thing is organic. I will get your real media, like all that stuff. They can take that angle.

That's just the positioning that they're going to take in the marketplace. Right. So that's how you would, and if that's, that's their thing, they can utilize that in the article placements, right? That they can use that for their truth. so that's what it would look like. So to me, you know, either one of them, it doesn't matter. Like they're both right. You know, they're both, they're to whoever, you know, the eye of the beholder, but like, to each their own. Right. so that's what I mean when, know, you want to be truthful.

Paul Povolni (39:09.009)
Right.

Paul Povolni (39:20.933)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (39:26.456)
But you want to organize it in a way that gives you your positioning in the marketplace. So, yeah, do that. The next thing is like, don't take the shortcuts to credibility as in, which we all know, pay for, you know, pay for followers, like all that type of stuff. Don't do that type of stuff because, it actually, it tanks your credibility more than it gives you any credibility. yeah.

Paul Povolni (39:38.715)
Right.

Paul Povolni (39:52.584)
Well, and I think, I think also transparency of, of when you pay for stuff. you know, there, there is controversy and there is, you know, people that learn how to game the system, you know, they learn how to, you know, get published, learn how, you know, then they add the Forbes as featured in Forbes or as featured in entrepreneurial magazine. And they're not being transparent with that. And so they're trying to trick people into thinking that,

Ulyses Osuna (40:10.819)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (40:21.148)
they have credibility and they've earned that placement when in actual fact they paid for it or they just, you as you were talking about, they knew the writer or whatever. What are some other things that you see trend wise that people need to stop because it's going to hurt them in the long

Ulyses Osuna (40:41.292)
Well, so, I would say, I would say for them that, that they want to do that, just be a little bit more clear. Cause what people are upset about is that they're not, you know, they're not being clear about, yeah, they're not being transparent about it. So, you know, which, which I would say comes with telling the truth. Like the, the truth, the truth shall, shall set you free. Right. So I, I will,

Paul Povolni (40:53.096)
They're not transparent, yeah.

Paul Povolni (41:07.075)
Right, right.

Ulyses Osuna (41:09.504)
I 100 % recommend that they do that. still disagree with the route of like, you know, if, just because somebody says they're featured in Forbes, let's say they knew a writer or let's say they paid for that placement. I still don't think it means that they didn't earn it or they didn't deserve it. You know, believer in the opposite, but, or it's on a case by case basis, I would say. But I think what the things that people are doing that's

incorrect and that people are kind of like upset about already at this point, because it's happened so many times is I just got, I just got named top 10, you know, by Forbes. It's like, no, you didn't. The company did not name you that. Right. that writer might've named you that. it might've been a paid placement, but, do not say you got named top 10 by Forbes because that's just not true. you know, I, unless it was like a Forbes 30 into 30, or it was a staff written article.

Paul Povolni (41:47.58)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (41:51.004)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (42:04.876)
Like don't make claims that are not true. And you, and you won't have, you won't necessarily have the trouble, you know, that comes with it. Cause I don't think anybody has an issue. Well, they might, but I don't think anybody has an issue with people paying for placement. think people have the issue with people paying for placement and telling people they like didn't or, you know, I think that's where the issue comes from. It's like the people try and be deceptive, about it, but yeah.

Paul Povolni (42:18.47)
Right.

Paul Povolni (42:24.007)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (42:30.28)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it kind of goes back to what you said too, with, you know, there's, there's two different camps. There's some people that it's like, I did all this organically and blah, blah, you know, and they almost make it bad that if you pay for it, that you didn't do it like I did later, I walked through the snow uphill, you know, type thing, you know, I, I, you know, I roughed it. I, know, and they, they also, they also make it, you know, like a villain out of the people that

And it's like, it's not either or, you know, it doesn't have to be. And you're not a failure if you do it one way or a success if you do it another way. I think there's just two routes to the same end, right?

Ulyses Osuna (43:12.622)
Agreed I can name so many people that have done the paid route that have 100 % Deserved it that like will impact the world more than I ever will with my PR company like what I do is nothing in comparison to what they do they just need help getting it out there and So yeah, so it's just yeah, like you said two sides of the same coin two different routes You know, they're not villains just because they didn't decide to do with the route that you're Spouting, you know and not you obviously but the people that are

Paul Povolni (43:29.042)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (43:42.573)
saying that.

Paul Povolni (43:42.598)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think also in the time that we're living in, there's so many voices out there. There's so many, people vying for the attention and a lot of times for the very same people that, that you're vying for attention for. So for the person that is, you know, looking at PR and is looking at, growing their personal brand, what are some of the first things that you start telling them to look at?

Ulyses Osuna (44:07.594)
So I would, so for somebody that's like getting started, they want to take a look at what the narrative is already for their brand. Like, what is it? What do people think about you? You know, what are some of the buying beliefs people have? Like if, you know, you're on a call, do they trust you enough? Like, do they think you're worth the amount that you're telling them? You know, do they think that there's somebody else out there that's probably a little bit better, maybe a little bit faster? Like you got to figure out what are the buying beliefs people already have? Because if you can

patch those holes. It's very similar to like a sales call and a sales call, you know, most of the objections are going to come. It's going to be trust timing, lack of need or lack of funds. So if you can like patch those and you can make the perfect objection on the sales call and you know, this is going to, they're going to come. Well, patch those up for your personal brand. What do people already believe? How can you work on those things to make them not true? Make them, you know, the complete opposite.

And then you know, all right, this is how I would build kind of like a rock solid personal brand. Here's who I am. Here's what I believe in. This is what people should know, believe about me. Once you have that narrative, then it's time to go to the market. Time to go to the media because it's not just important for you to know it. Now that you know it, it's now important for other people to know it. Otherwise it's useless. So if you can get there, get that out into the media and you control the headlines of the articles you control.

Paul Povolni (45:26.535)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (45:33.132)
You know, the way that you're talking on these podcasts, you have, your one to two minute, like perfect scenarios of when, you know, TV spots can ask you a question. know exactly what you're going to say. if you can control it to that level, then you are building a very intentional personal brand. but if you don't do that and you just try to get into the media, you just try to do, just trying to put out content, but it's not intentional. it's going to be hard because people are not going to.

Know what you believe in. They're not going to know what you stand for. They're not going to know what you do. So, that's what I would recommend.

Paul Povolni (46:07.974)
And so, okay, so they've, they've defined who they are and what they're about. if they've listened to their ideal customers, and you said you do that through sales calls, through conversations and things like that. What are some other ways that they can get that self-awareness? Because sometimes we're blind to our own, you know, things, you know, we, we, we miss some of the obvious stuff. So what are some ways that they could, somebody can say, okay, well, I need to do some self-examination to get that clarity. What are some things that they can do?

Ulyses Osuna (46:26.839)
Yes.

Ulyses Osuna (46:36.066)
That's such a great question. I love that so much. So one of the things that we do with our team is, we approve of things that go out to customers before we like submit anything to a customer. always say, okay, let's look at this. Tell me what's wrong with it. That's the, that's the biggest thing is we were always critical and we're always trying to find at least one thing wrong with a message that we're going to send out, an article that we're going to send out anything, because if it can be improved at all, it should be.

So if you're right, many people are blind to it, what I would recommend is them being super critical. If you believe that your product is the best in the world, tell me why it probably isn't. Now, if you can't think of anything, then you're not being realistic. You're not being actually self-aware. But if you can think of things that are wrong with your personal brand, that are wrong with your messaging, that are wrong with your sales process, or is wrong with the marketing that you're putting out, you will identify gaps.

Paul Povolni (47:06.301)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (47:36.302)
you know, you're not perfect. You will for sure identify gaps. And all you have to do is every time you ask yourself that question, patch it up, patch up that gap, fix it. and then, you know, as you, it's very similar to us when we take on clients, we give out NPS forms every 30 days. So clients get to tell us what they like, what they don't like, what they want more of, what they would rate us out of. And that feedback every 30 days, if we take a look at it,

Paul Povolni (47:36.614)
Right.

Ulyses Osuna (48:02.594)
We're always patching up the little things to make it just a little bit better, a little bit better. so if you truly want to be self-aware, just force, force that question. you know, every time you're thinking about, know, your personal brand, it's like, if there was something wrong, what would it be? And then many times it'll lead you down a rabbit hole.

Paul Povolni (48:20.466)
Now you've done this long enough. So you probably spot patterns. What are some patterns that you've seen consistently that have been those blind spots over and over again? For the, for, for the person that's wanting to build a personal brand and the patterns that you've spotted in the people that you've helped.

Ulyses Osuna (48:30.168)
For us or for personal brands?

Ulyses Osuna (48:36.736)
Yeah. I would say, and this is very cliche, but it's messaging. So you know, when like business, business owners talk about like mindset, I think it's like talked out so much that people just like, okay, like let's say somebody buys a course, the first, first, you know, one to two videos is about mindset. People won't even watch those. They'll just continue on to the rest to get to the meat of the stuff. that's how people or entrepreneurs think about positioning.

Paul Povolni (49:01.746)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (49:05.992)
and messaging, they think they already have it. So because they already have it, they're going to move on to the next thing when that is the most important thing. Because again, if you don't know the buying beliefs of your customers, if you don't know what makes them tick, if you don't know what makes them buy, if you don't know any of that stuff and you think you know, then anything that you do is not going to lead you to the result that you're looking for because you didn't do it right at the foundation. Many people overlook that when I would think it's the most important part. And I'll give you an example just with us.

Right now, there's so many people that offer PR. If I was just to offer PR, there would be nothing special about me. Maybe just, you know, the only thing that I could probably pull out of my, my, I was going say my ass is like the fact that I've worked with like, you know, pretty big names, but that's it. That nothing else would separate me. So what would separate me? Well, I know that so many people have media that has done nothing for them whatsoever. So my angle, my positioning, my messaging in the market is

Paul Povolni (49:48.753)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (50:00.86)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (50:05.048)
you know, it's not enough to just get the media because it literally does nothing for you. It's just a tool. How you utilize it will determine the ROI that you actually get. So now there's a market of people that have PR or maybe don't have PR, but that want to utilize it in a way that actually, you know, doesn't just fill their ego. It's like, it's not just a vanity metric. They want to utilize it somehow. same thing for others. It's like, you got to really identify the messaging. If you skip over that, I can almost guarantee you.

that the people that didn't skip over that are going to get the business that you want because there's something different about them. And it's not just that you do things faster, quicker, better. Like that's not it.

Paul Povolni (50:45.04)
Yeah. And then you're going to get to a point where you'll be like, you'll be stuck and then you'll end up going back and realize it was the, you needed it anyways. So, you you mentioned, you know, some of those, messaging in particular, is there an example of somebody that comes to mind that you saw that, they were way off and then you saw an incredible transformation once they dialed it in. Does anybody come to mind?

Ulyses Osuna (50:51.448)
doing it anyways. Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (51:10.592)
Yes. Yes, a hundred percent. would say a very, I'll give an example that's not like a client, but that is out there that most people probably know. So there is so many people that are in the fitness space that will basically sell you on a program to help you look good naked. But when Gary Brekka came along, are you familiar with Gary? So when Gary Brekka came along, he made...

Paul Povolni (51:34.887)
Yeah, yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (51:38.498)
you know, and I wouldn't say he's the only one, but he definitely, you know, made it more popular to be healthier because of the angle that he took, which is, mean, he's not the most sculpted body person compared to like all these other dudes. But his route is he worked in life insurance. He can pinpoint to the month where you're going to die, right? Supposedly. And because of that, he knows the things that, you know, the big corporations are not telling you.

And it has nothing to do with like, you know, work out and do all the types of stuff. It's all this different things, right? It's all about, he talks about getting, you know, putting your feet on the grass in the morning. He talks about doing, you know, breath work. He talks about doing cold pledging. He talks about all that stuff, right? And now people are, you know, getting onto that with peptides and with all the, these other things, but his positioning in the marketplace made him get a huge, gap of people that like, people that were just stuck with.

the personal trainers that can help you lose weight in 24 weeks and you know, all that stuff. So, that's a, that's clear indication of like, okay, he definitely knew the market, what people were buying, what are the buying beliefs already about that and what he can do that's different.

Paul Povolni (52:38.748)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (52:51.152)
Yeah. And I think that's, that's where it comes down to from what you've shared is in the messaging, it's the differentiation, like what, what makes you different than everybody else that's might be saying a similar thing, right?

Ulyses Osuna (53:05.132)
Yes, yes, because there's so many people saying the same thing. The exact same thing.

Paul Povolni (53:09.136)
Yeah. Yeah. And so, so you finally reeled them in and, know, they made the mistake. They didn't do messaging. They went and did, you know, pass that they kind of skipped those steps and you've gotten them down to messaging. What's the next thing that you deal with?

Ulyses Osuna (53:24.898)
The next thing that I would have them do is go straight into the market as quick as possible and get as much stuff as you possibly can. Because, you know, some people like to like, I want to get maybe a couple of things each month. But the reality is nobody is paying attention to their brand enough to where they're saying, in February they got, you know, one TV spot, three articles, whatever. And then on March, they got this, this and that. Nobody cares. They're too busy doing their own thing. So get as much PR as possible as quickly as you can.

and one of things that I advocate for is, is making it a win-win. So for us, for the PR company, whenever we get clients on the stages or maybe even shows or the way that we bypass sometimes, you know, podcasters, wanting to charge like, you know, enormous fees is we'll, do borders with them. say, Hey, you know, if we, you know, if we can get you here or if you, you know, take our client in, we'd love to do this for you. Right. We're just offering them a service. so.

I would recommend people to find a value exchange, a win-win scenario of some kind. If you have a product, like provide product to the, to the podcaster to review and tell them, Hey, if you like the product, then I would love to be on your show. If you don't, that's okay. You know, leave it be. So, you know, there's that instead of like, Hey, you know, podcaster, I'll send you my product. If you get me onto your show, that's different because podcaster doesn't need you. They don't care about you. This is the first time learning about you. So instead provide value upfront. And then if they're interested.

in having you, they will. And most of the time, if you get something for free, you have a high likelihood of wanting to reciprocate in some way. So, you know, that's how, that's how you can lead it. You know, for stages, we definitely do do PR for the event to get a client that should be already on that stage onto that stage. And we're bypassing the hundreds of people that probably want to speak on that stage that is just competing off of their name. So we don't rely just off of the name, you know, off the personal brand, because there's so many people that have probably a much bigger personal brand.

Paul Povolni (55:11.014)
Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (55:17.71)
that have been doing it for decades that have much more accolades than you, but you still have a story to share and you still can't get on there, is just offer something of value to that event, the whatever it might be that you want. The only thing that you cannot do that for is for media placements, because again, you can't barter, you can't give them a gift, and you cannot pay them if you're doing it the organic way.

Paul Povolni (55:42.63)
Right. So straight out of the gate after they've got the messaging is it sounded like you were saying that the best route is organically get as much stuff out there or is paid mixed in there or is paid later.

Ulyses Osuna (55:57.14)
If somebody does not want to spend the money, then do not go, do not go the paid route. I would 100 % not focus on article placements whatsoever on media placements. If they're going the earned route, would 100 % go for things that are going to move the needle. The things that move the needle most of the time are podcasts and our stages, because that you can utilize so much more with, you know, cropping them up.

putting them on your social with, you know, hoping, you know, the audience that the podcaster has is going to see it. Like there's much more things that you can utilize and do than an article would give you. Like I would only go the article route if you want to control the narrative of what people are saying about you. So that way it's easier to pre-sell individuals before they schedule a call or whatever that might look like. But, I would 100 % go try to get as much media as possible because it's easier to snowball.

If you get one big podcast, that one big podcast will last you a lifetime in opportunities for stages, for other shows, for media, for whatever it is that you might want to get for collaborations. so you just need to push onto that, try to get one big one and snowball that.

Paul Povolni (57:10.736)
I would imagine that getting on, getting your message out there and getting yourself out there, you know, even organically, even, you know, just by reaching out to people also gives you the opportunity to refine your message, right? It gives you an opportunity because once, once you're repeating it, you realize, man, I really have not got clarity on how I talk about this or man, they asked a really good question and I didn't really have a good answer for it. And so.

Ulyses Osuna (57:25.856)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (57:40.56)
It helps you refine stuff, right? And so you, you know, you were talking about get out as much as possible, as often as possible, as free as possible, but get out there. And I would imagine that's a big benefit of it, right?

Ulyses Osuna (57:52.118)
Yes. And it takes an expert to like pinpoint that stuff because, that is true. Like you should be always optimizing it. you know, for even for like TV, most people, they only have a limited amount of timeframe to get whatever they need to get out, out there. the same thing applies with your messaging. If you're noticing that nobody wants to have you on. It's a clear indication that your messaging is not important enough or is not, you know, you know, getting them to say yes, if you're on a show and.

Like you said, you didn't answer that quite, you know, quite right. Instead of just hopping off and moving on to your next thing. Okay. You know, most likely that they're probably like the next podcast you get on, they might ask a similar question. So, you know, practice, and that will, that will 100 % hone in on your messaging, your branding. You'll become so succinct. and that's super important. So I'm super glad you, pointed that out.

Paul Povolni (58:33.234)
Right.

Paul Povolni (58:45.062)
Yeah, because, know, you'd hate to pay for, you know, being on a podcast or being on a stage or, you know, do put in a lot of effort and, whatever to be on a morning show in a local network too early on. And you still haven't refined it because then, then it's like, you, you failed at an opportunity. Now you could recover, of course, but you've either paid or you've, you've gotten the attention, but you weren't quite ready for the attention yet. And so I think in, in.

Ulyses Osuna (59:06.883)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (59:14.876)
going and being on this many podcasts and being interviewed and writing and getting out there as much as possible lets you do that refinement and helps you out. What are some other things, you so now where you're going out there, you've got your message, you're going out there, you're trying to reach out to as many people as possible, share your message as much as possible. What's a roadblock that happens around that time? Is there a roadblock? Is there a place where they get stuck that they need help?

Ulyses Osuna (59:22.924)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (59:44.334)
or to get over that hurdle.

Ulyses Osuna (59:46.636)
Yes. I would say, that experience humbles most people because you'll realize that your messaging isn't that important to a lot of individuals that a lot of individuals probably don't want to hear your story. that they might not give you the time of day cause they might not think, you know, it's important enough for them to have you on. So that humbling experience should not let you just, leave it be. It should actually, you should actually utilize it to improve and continue. because once you continue.

and which I really hope that, you know, the majority of people that get the opportunities are people that don't think they're too above it. I've seen too many times where a client or somebody might think they're above a podcast and it's not worth their time. And that is such a detriment because if you think that way and you think that the only podcast you should ever be on are the ones that are super big, what happens when they don't want you?

What happens if you're not big enough, if they think you're not worth their time? So that you definitely have to like, the only people I would say this doesn't apply to are people that are already big. Like an Ed Milett, when he came to us, he was already big. He didn't need to do the smaller shows because he was just, you know, there's not too many Ed Milett out there. so don't, don't be too egotistical to think that you're above things because I can guarantee you the people that don't think that will get the opportunities that you want.

Paul Povolni (01:00:47.291)
Right.

Paul Povolni (01:01:03.016)
Right.

Paul Povolni (01:01:14.652)
That's amazing. So what's, what's a head smack that you want to share that I haven't asked you about?

Ulyses Osuna (01:01:21.198)
That's a good question. think you did a very good job asking me the questions that I definitely wanted to answer. Because like, for example, the paid stuff, I definitely wanted to get out there because I think there's just misconceptions around that, you know? And although I agree with the majority of people that talk about earned media, I think they're leaving out this part, which is like, they're just two different methods. And I just don't want it to be vilified when I know there's so many people out there that

like have a story that have a business that is doing great things in the world that just, they just don't know how to get on the media. Like a perfect example is, you know, and I keep going back to it, unfortunately, but when I was like 70 years ago, when we did have Ed Mylett as a client, he didn't have any media whatsoever. Does it mean that because he paid us or whatever, and we kind of brokered the whole thing for him that now all of a sudden it's like he loses credibility? Like it just doesn't work like that. So.

I don't have any additional ones. I do want to thank you for asking me the specific ones because we definitely got to like dive in deep into that. So I appreciate that.

Paul Povolni (01:02:31.068)
That's awesome. And so you mentioned that Neil Patel was an early influence that kind of set you on the right track. Who's influencing you now?

Ulyses Osuna (01:02:39.022)
the people that influenced me now, is a little bit different because my priorities changed. Now that I have a daughter, now that I have a family, like I don't care too much about the hustle culture. I don't care too much about other people's like opinions. I don't care too much about, you know, me even being on the spotlight. the people that I care, the people that I look to now is more so like, forgot his last name, but his name is Justin something where he talks about like, do the work that you're doing be off at the time that you're going to be off.

you know, spend time with your family, like, you know, have high margins. Like you don't necessarily need to build a multi-million billion dollar company to like, for people that don't necessarily know you to think that you're important. Like I just, my priorities have definitely changed. people that talk about that, like for example, Austin, that's Lee, somebody that I look up to, he's a friend of mine. you know, he's very much about, you know, tweaking your business, but also sitting off the hamster wheel.

you know, all that because you don't necessarily need to scale. If you live a very good life, you have amazing clients, you live a very peaceful life. I care more about peace of mind than I would ever care about financial status or even, you know, status in general on like social. So my peace of mind, the life that I live matters more to me because I know at the end of the day, the only one that's going to regret it if I didn't live it the way that I wanted to is going to be me. It's not going to be other anybody else. So

When I die, I want to make sure that I lived my life, not that I hit some accolades.

Paul Povolni (01:04:11.44)
Man, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on. This has been a great conversation. A lot of great insights. think a lot of things that can really help somebody when it comes to growing their personal brand. So if somebody wants to reach out to you, who's your ideal client and who shouldn't reach out to you?

Ulyses Osuna (01:04:29.74)
Yeah. So I would say my ideal client is, one of these two individuals. Number one, they're a six or seven figure earner. They have a service based business, products we don't necessarily work with all the time. they have a service based business. They're doing, they're doing great things in the world. and they want to get their message out there. And if that's the case, you can reach out to me at Ulysses, on Instagram.

Paul Povolni (01:04:53.018)
And who should not reach out to you?

Ulyses Osuna (01:04:54.776)
The people that we don't work with whatsoever is MLM. We don't work with any crypto projects. We don't work with any Forex traders. We don't work with any Lambo guru type individuals. We try to stay away from that. And product-based businesses are also not the best fit because it's very much on a case to case basis. We want to make sure that whenever we work with a client, it transforms them in some way.

Paul Povolni (01:05:08.49)
Hahaha.

Ulyses Osuna (01:05:24.334)
And when you get PR, you're not going to sell a ton of products, but you might sell services. that's, you know, that's who we primarily work.

Paul Povolni (01:05:31.538)
Well, Ulysses, thank you so much for coming on today. And this has been wonderful. And be sure to reach out at that. You said Instagram is the best way to get a hold of you, or is there a website or just Instagram? Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for being on today.

Ulyses Osuna (01:05:41.484)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ulyses Osuna (01:05:47.054)
Thank you for having me.