Rachel Pedersen / CEO & Marketing Strategist. Author. Podcaster

From Hairstylist to Marketing Maven: The Psychology of Building a Million-Dollar Brand

In a world where social media presence can make or break a business, authenticity has become more crucial than ever. Rachel Pedersen, founder of Pelanora and a social media marketing expert, shares her journey from humble beginnings to building a successful agency.

Key insights from Rachel's experience:

1. The importance of choosing the right brand archetype that aligns with your natural personality
2. Why understanding psychology is more valuable than studying marketing tactics
3. How to create content that passes the "So What?" test
4. The value of documenting your intellectual property
5. The power of using your audience's actual language

Rachel emphasizes that sustainable success comes from building a brand that you can maintain long-term without burning out. This means choosing a persona that's an augmentation of your true self rather than a complete fabrication.

For businesses looking to improve their social media presence, Rachel recommends focusing on understanding your audience's pain points and speaking their language. Success isn't just about strategy – it's about psychology and authentic connection.

LINK: RachelPedersen.com
BOOK: Unfiltered

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (05:46.731)
Hey, welcome to the Head Smack podcast. name is Paul Povolny and I am excited to have Rachel Peterson with me today. Rachel is a USA Today bestselling author, sought after speaker, founder of high level consulting agency called Pella Nora, a high level consulting agency. And he's also a trailblazer in the field of social media marketing. Rachel has partnered with entrepreneurs, Fortune 500 companies and industry leaders to create transformative campaigns.

Her accolades include global media coverage, speaking engagements at prestigious events and groundbreaking results such as scaling businesses to multi-figure revenue growth. Rachel, so excited to have you on. Welcome.

Rachel Pedersen (06:29.843)
I'm so excited to be here. This will be great!

Paul Povolni (06:32.811)
This will be great. Well, I'm excited to talk to you because I've been following along with your journey and your adventures for a few years. And so I was looking forward to chatting with you and learning a little bit more about you. I'm impressed with what you're doing. You're doing some amazing things, helping a lot of people. And so I want to talk to you a little bit about what you're doing now. But before we get started, I want to hear your origin story. I like starting off by hearing people's origin story so you can go as far back as you want to go.

And I'd like to hear a little bit about that. What, what was the formation of Rachel Peterson?

Rachel Pedersen (07:09.529)
Gosh, okay. So growing up I grew up in a super Religious household. So my dad was a pastor and my mom was the worship leader of our church and so growing up like I was I was pretty I don't want to say trained but I feel like trained is the right word here I was trained to be on stages and present and speak publicly and so I kind of feel like that was a huge part of who

how I became who I am. And as I got older, so I don't know about you, but I kind of had like a rebellious, like naughty attitude with life. Yeah. was like, so you're all the things you're doing, right? Yeah. And I was like, I'm not going to do that. So surprise, surprise, I became a single mom at 21.

Paul Povolni (07:49.215)
Yeah. Yeah. I think we all do in some, some.

Rachel Pedersen (08:04.569)
And just life kind of changed a little bit at that point. I think one of the things that was the most surprising is like my dad was struggling financially to even like pay his bills. At that point, like he could barely even like afford his rent or mortgage rather. And my mom wasn't willing at that point to let me live with her. So I kind of had to figure some things out. So I

It's so weird to go back to that point. I hustled and I grinded and I found this thing called, do you remember by chance Cha Cha? Like you text 242-242. Do you remember Cha Cha? Like, okay. So it was, you would text 242-242 and any question you asked, would, a guide would send you an answer. So.

Paul Povolni (08:47.083)
No, that might have been an American thing. No.

Paul Povolni (08:59.531)
Uh-huh.

Paul Povolni (09:04.943)
wow.

Rachel Pedersen (09:05.449)
I did that nonstop. answered thousands, thousands and thousands and thousands of questions and you would get paid anywhere from eight cents to 24 cents per question. And they had to have like citations and everything. And I mean, at that point in time, so like I'm struggling, I'm barely making ends meet. And I was making anywhere from 1800 to maybe 2700 a month.

just working on my computer and that was a huge deal, right? Like that's the difference between diapers and no diaper. Yeah. So I became one of the top hotshot guides and I will say like, I think that time was really, really crucial for me to learn how to search for the answers to anything. Like you can find answers to absolutely anything if you're resourceful, if you're willing to search a little bit.

Paul Povolni (09:35.447)
wow.

Paul Povolni (09:39.719)
Yeah, wow. Yeah. Right, right.

Paul Povolni (09:56.917)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (10:02.665)
Right, right, right.

Rachel Pedersen (10:04.601)
so I did that for a very, yeah, for a very short time, but it was a few months and, it was in 2014. I was working as a hairstylist and I met my amazing husband and we fell in love pretty dang fast. I'm not going to lie. Like we met and we got married 13 days later. It was like, let's, let's go. Let's just make life happen. And,

Paul Povolni (10:25.76)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (10:29.897)
Wow.

Rachel Pedersen (10:34.009)
From there, I I started like building this business on the side, working as a marketing consultant for $14 an hour and just continuing to build and pursuing like, how can I make this something? I don't have a degree, I don't have qualifications, but I just feel like I could make this something. Back then, actually, this is kind of interesting. I don't normally share this. So we would cruise.

Paul Povolni (10:51.966)
Right, right.

Rachel Pedersen (11:03.169)
me and Paul, were just crews driving in the car, listening to the song, Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. And imagine like, we could do something, we could be someone, we could make something happen, you know, and that's kind of what I did. And so it took me about...

Paul Povolni (11:04.16)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (11:10.453)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (11:18.74)
Yeah.

Where did that come from? did that feeling come from? Where did that desire, where did that inspiration come from?

Rachel Pedersen (11:28.341)
so interesting because I don't feel like there was you're gonna make me cry Paul dig on it I don't feel like there was anything in my life up until that point that had ever indicated that something else was possible I only knew like poverty I only knew like addiction I only knew families broken by divorce

and abuse and prison and tragedy. And so I honestly don't know. I feel like sometimes like if you meet the right person, whether it's like a business partner or a strategic like team member or a spouse, you just meet them and like hope is sparked. And that's definitely what it was for me with Paul. Like I met him and I was like, life can look different, you know?

Paul Povolni (12:14.559)
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:22.887)
Right. Well, and I think sometimes that unconditional, yeah, I think sometimes unconditional love does that. think it's very transformative when you experience that, especially if you haven't experienced it before, you know, and so that, that gives you the hope that gives you like, I'm, I'm valued, I'm loved. I'm somebody thinks I'm the world, you know, and I think that could make a huge impact on just building that, that hope that.

Rachel Pedersen (12:23.659)
even though there was nothing to indicate that that was possible.

Rachel Pedersen (12:31.607)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (12:37.601)
Yes.

Rachel Pedersen (12:47.544)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (12:51.488)
there's more to what I can do, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (12:52.728)
Yeah.

And it's wild too, because I was just talking with Paul about this the other day. And you know, I had maybe six or seven boyfriends and or fiancees before Paul that were extremely wealthy, like really wealthy, like families own hospitals. Father is institutional.

like legacy for neurosurgery. Like I had some, I had some really wealthy boyfriends and I just, I said no to all of them. And then I met him and I was like, this feels like something that could be the start of something amazing. And yeah, you're going to make me cry. There's something about Paul's, isn't there? Like Paul's are great people. Yes, they're underrated. So

Paul Povolni (13:28.117)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (13:38.069)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (13:43.731)
Yeah, that's my wife says that.

Rachel Pedersen (13:51.577)
I started building and it took me let's see so we married in 2013 and then by 2015 I had started the business 2016 I went full-time 2016 still I retired him well retired him got him home from his nine to five and then Yeah, the rest is kind of great. So crazy origin story

Paul Povolni (14:11.688)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (14:16.351)
So, so this, this business that you started, where did, where did you learn the stuff that you learned? You know, you mentioned that you, you, did the hairdressing. you mentioned that, you know, you did the, the, what was it? Cha cha. Was that the name of it? Cha cha. Do you remember? So, so where, where did, where did the, the evolution to, from doing those things to what you started doing in 2015, once that hope came, where did that, come from?

Rachel Pedersen (14:21.825)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (14:27.245)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (14:30.903)
Yeah, cha-cha, guys.

Rachel Pedersen (14:43.851)
You know, it was, yeah, it like, it doesn't seem like a natural progression at all. it was kind of accidental. So I had a client that was sitting in my chair and I was giving her like the best highlights of her life. And she was like, we were just talking about all kinds of things. We were talking about like sharp tank. And I was talking about how I grew my business as a hairstylist. And I was like, well, basically I just.

Paul Povolni (15:00.199)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (15:11.737)
post these before and after pictures on social and my clientele grows the more that I do that.

Paul Povolni (15:18.527)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (15:21.529)
She was like, would you be willing to like consult for us? And part of me was like, absolutely not. I'm so not qualified for this. She was like, no, I want you to, I want you to consult for us. We need help with marketing. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll do it. She's like, how does $14 an hour sound? It was like, that's amazing side cash. Yes, please. So, so it was, it was accidental.

Paul Povolni (15:30.699)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (15:43.775)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (15:48.091)
Hahaha

Rachel Pedersen (15:51.521)
and then it kind of fit. So I was like, let's do it, you know?

Paul Povolni (15:51.743)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (15:55.761)
Yeah, yeah. So at what point did you think that this is going to work and I could do this kind of thing forever instead of doing the the hairstyling?

Rachel Pedersen (16:05.943)
Hmm. I still am learning that. No, I'm just kidding. the first night. So I went out to dinner with her and her husband who owned this like fast food franchise. And when I came home, I presented it all to Paul and I just, I will never forget that moment.

Paul Povolni (16:10.297)
Hahaha!

Rachel Pedersen (16:29.419)
I laid everything out on the kitchen table and I was like, they want to hire me as a marketing consultant. Like, what do you think? And he said, I think this is your future. And how many times can you cry on a Thursday, right? I was pretty blown away because I don't think I even believed in me at that point, but he was like, no, this is it. This is what you're meant to do. And I was like, okay, I'll do it.

Paul Povolni (16:40.639)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (16:44.469)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (16:52.266)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (16:59.257)
but it took me a lot longer to realize like no, this is for real. I would actually say it was probably over the last like two years that i've been Re-choosing this field if that makes sense Kind of being like, okay. So i've had all the technical success like checked all the boxes hit all the milestones everything that people want Do I yeah, do I actually choose this?

Paul Povolni (17:21.641)
Yeah, yeah. Got the commas and all that.

Rachel Pedersen (17:28.209)
And it was this last year that I was like, yeah, I'm going to re-choose this. Let's do this another decade or so, you know? Yeah.

Paul Povolni (17:35.711)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm guessing that that your husband probably saw the light in your eyes or the bounce in your step when you did what you did. And I'm guessing that's probably why he said you're made for this. Like you need to go in on this because he saw something probably light up in you, right?

Rachel Pedersen (17:56.269)
I would think so, but I will say so just yesterday morning, I was so sick yesterday and I randomly took a photo just in my cute sick outfit. And I was like, babe, I think I should be a photographer. Look at my great angles. Like, I'm so good at this. And he sent back like the sweetest message ever. And he was like, baby, you can do anything that you set your mind to. Like you have so many skills and so much talent. And I was like,

Paul Povolni (18:08.395)
Ha ha.

Rachel Pedersen (18:25.694)
dang this man is like one in a bajillion

Paul Povolni (18:28.969)
Yeah, that's amazing. Well, I'm finding somebody to encourage you, you know, and somebody that, I mean, encouragement is so valuable. Like, I think, I think the world needs more encouragers, you know, you know, you, you'd mentioned your faith and you, you know, growing up in church and stuff and, know, even, even like the apostle Paul talked about those who would come and encourage him, you know, and he talked about God who, encourages those who need encouragement, you know,

Rachel Pedersen (18:32.099)
Thank you.

Rachel Pedersen (18:39.481)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (18:56.015)
And I think encourages is such a critical thing. And I think we all need those in our lives. you know, when we're married to one, that's, that's amazing. But I think all of us just need that one person that could just say, Hey, you've got this or you can do this or, whatever you set your heart to, you can do. Because we don't get enough of that. We've got people that are ready to cut you down, especially on social media, especially on, you know, in the industries that we're both in, there's somebody ready to critique you, ready to cut you down, ready to.

to chop down that tall poppy, you know, and put you in your place type thing. And so that's amazing. And so you retired him. So what were you doing when you were able to do that for him?

Rachel Pedersen (19:36.857)
social media management specifically and only. So I had, yeah, I had less than eight clients and I was doing, I want to say 160, 170, if not 190 per year run rate. So it, grew very quickly. I was surprised by how many people needed someone to do the thing versus just like teach a course on the thing, you know?

Paul Povolni (19:56.264)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (20:06.474)
Ryan, Ryan.

Rachel Pedersen (20:07.531)
And so yeah, social media management specifically. And that was it. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (20:13.705)
Yeah. Are you finding more and more people are like that? They'll rather put money into things and time and that rather hire and have people help them with stuff like, social media training and learning how to do it. I would imagine a lot of that is readily available, but people are just not willing to do it. That rather find somebody that's well versed in it and able to help them out. is that kind of what grew, grew your business is those people. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (20:41.945)
For sure. Yeah, I think even to this day, like I experienced this too. Sometimes I'm just like, am information overloaded. Stop. Don't teach me anything else. And I want to know like, can you do this for me? Can you make this happen? Cause I'm tired.

Paul Povolni (20:53.801)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (21:02.315)
And so our other CEOs, you know, they want someone to come in and just like implement everything. And actually this has been surprising. Like one of the biggest things we've seen with like Palinora is most clients come to us for a strategy and we deliver the whole strategy and they're like, okay, now how much for you to do it? Cause we're tired. Our team is exhausted. They're overloaded. Like, could you please just come in and do it? And that's actually been an amazing strategy for us. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (21:04.457)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (21:21.949)
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (21:31.859)
Yeah. And so how did, how did you get to that place where, you were doing what you're doing now? Like you started with the social, you said you kind of wavered on whether you want to do that. What happened during that time?

Rachel Pedersen (21:37.933)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (21:47.225)
Ooh. So I did a lot of client work for probably a lot longer than most people stick with it. I'm just going to be super honest. Like I did social media. I did Facebook ads. I went into like full on implementation of launches and I'll just be super honest. It like kicked my butt. Like it was so much work.

Paul Povolni (22:00.444)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (22:14.623)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (22:17.237)
And yeah, we brought client after client after client through multi-million dollar launches. And I was just like, dude, I am tired. Like, I don't think I can do this anymore. And so it's been this love hate relationship of like going back and forth between doing it, advising on it, doing it, advising on it. Cause I don't know, I think you made a point where you're like, just, dude, I need a break sometimes or

Paul Povolni (22:27.647)
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (22:39.388)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (22:46.495)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (22:46.605)
You have one really rough client where they just get you to that point where you're like, I don't want to do any part of this anymore. You just being honest, I've had clients, you know? Yeah. So I almost feel like I constantly go back and forth between wanting to offer it and like not wanting to offer it at all ever again.

Paul Povolni (22:54.699)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right, right.

Paul Povolni (23:12.223)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (23:14.553)
But there is something beautiful about done for you, whether it's done for you like brand voice, brand archetype. I do love copywriting. So I go back to copywriting a lot. People don't actually, I think know that about me. I do a lot of copywriting for clients, whether it's captions or emails or sales pages. Like I love that process. So I'll get in there. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (23:23.509)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (23:29.983)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (23:35.721)
Yeah. Yeah. So is that what ignited you reignited your love? Cause you said you started off doing social. You grew that you're able to retire your husband and you grew that and you've got the commerce. got all that stuff. You know, it's kind of like saying, I love to cook, but I don't want to own a restaurant, know? And so you loved doing it at first. And then you grew it to a place where it became too much. Is that what happened? And then you kind of paused and then reset. How did you reset? Like, what was that like?

Rachel Pedersen (23:43.809)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (23:52.033)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (24:02.615)
Let me actually go back to what caused the first big pause. So we grew to $86,000 months, which was fantastic. We didn't have that much team in place. And that was just on the agency side. That didn't include education. So things were growing fast. And I was actually in Jamaica on my first real vacation in years. Let's see. So that was.

2018. Yeah. Yeah. 2018. That's so wild. and I was like so excited because I had not had a real vacation. 

Paul Povolni (25:31.733)
There you go, there you go.

Rachel Pedersen (25:35.971)
My husband and I are focusing on our marriage in Jamaica, kind of like a reset, reconnect, all the above after three kids were, we're tired, right? And our business partner was like, yeah, I've got you. I've got you on this vacation. I'm so happy. Have fun, enjoy the trip. And halfway through the vacation, he messages me and says, I'm so sorry, but I'm leaving.

Paul Povolni (25:46.432)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (26:05.153)
effective immediately. And I was like, what is happening? Cause I wasn't messaging at all. I was checking to make sure there weren't any fires or anything, but he's like, I'm leaving and I'm leaving for the mentor that we hired. And I was just, yeah, I was gobsmacked. Like, isn't that very Australian? Gobsmacked? I think so.

Paul Povolni (26:22.057)
wow.

Paul Povolni (26:27.947)
Yeah, I love that word.

Rachel Pedersen (26:34.643)
But it was one of those moments where it's like, I'm not gonna sleep tonight because I don't know what is happening, what's going on. I was truly blindsided and so was Paul. And I mean, he got on the phone with the business partner. He's like, what's actually happening? Just tell me the truth. And for the longest time, he denied that he was going to go work for a mentor who had poached him. And...

This was one of the most dramatic things I've experienced in business because I just didn't know that level of like deception even existed, if that makes sense. Like just tell the truth, just be honest. Yeah. Don't, you know, steal your clients, team members. was actually just blown away by that. And so that was, that was tough on that trip. I had to fire all of our clients, but five.

Paul Povolni (27:10.665)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a reality check of wow.

Rachel Pedersen (27:29.859)
to get us back down to like 30,000. Cause I knew I could handle 30,000 a month in MRR. And I was like, this is pretty traumatic. So that was one of those moments that really pulled away a lot of my love for working with clients. Just knowing if you don't have the right team and team that you can trust, can, it can mess you up for six months, you know, and leave you beyond exhausted.

Paul Povolni (27:52.607)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (27:59.609)
and stressed. was like suddenly becoming a single mom of six kids or whatever, know, like that was that messed with me all. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that was kind of the moment that like pulled me away from it. to get

Paul Povolni (28:06.003)
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, quite the head smack moment, yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:13.289)
And so what was the learning like?

Rachel Pedersen (28:20.105)
the learning. One of the biggest learnings I had through that was really check in with people and read between the lines. So when you say like, how are you doing? And they're like, I'm good. Be like, like what? What parts of your life are good and what's not going well? And how do you actually feel about things? And like ask them questions that kind of go deeper because

Paul Povolni (28:39.177)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (28:49.493)
Most people love to kind of pretend that everything's fine until it's not, but they still go further in that until it's not. Yeah. So that was big. then getting back into falling back into love with it. I will say I love growing clients, businesses kind of more than I even love growing my own, which is kind of toxic for all of us, but there is something.

Paul Povolni (28:54.154)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (29:12.063)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (29:19.385)
fun about, yeah, kicking off like an incredible launch for a client and them being like, I didn't know this was actually possible. I've seen it for other people and just like, there's something so beautiful about seeing a client like hit their first viral. And I'm like, isn't this addicting? Like, yes, let's keep doing it. So I, so as I like tiptoed back into client work, I was just like, there's something about this that is kind of

Paul Povolni (29:25.225)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (29:37.767)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (29:47.789)
dangerously addictive and I love it. kind of really love it.

Paul Povolni (29:52.467)
Yeah. Well, it's that whole thing of the, the Cobblers children have no shoes, you know, and I think both businesses are like that. You know, the very thing that they help others with, they're not helping themselves with. cause it's, it's, it's just, it seems more, sometimes tedious, sometimes not as fun, but then being able to serve people and get them results and get them, doing the things that they want to do and hitting their goals and reaching their purpose, just makes it's thrilling.

to and especially if you're wired to help people. If you love helping people, sometimes you put yourself second and it sounds like that's what was happening with some of what you were doing. And that's what drew you back is being able to help people and get them to that place. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing now. I know you've done some amazing video work, you your social work. So tell me a little bit about Pelanora.

Rachel Pedersen (30:47.453)
man. Okay. So one of the big changes that we experienced this year was we actually intentionally laid off the majority of our team and that was a huge decision. And that was kind of a part of the process of being like, do we still want to do this? What is life going to look like? Are we a solopreneurship? Do we take on less responsibility? Like there was a time Paul where our overhead

Paul Povolni (31:06.836)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (31:16.781)
just to keep the lights on was $80,000 per month. And I remember when that was the case and I was just like, people would think like, she shows up because she loves money. I'm like, I actually don't love money at all. I couldn't care less. Like, I love books, I love musicals, I love sewing.

Paul Povolni (31:34.251)
I'm

Yeah, wow.

Rachel Pedersen (31:43.199)
But it was like, had to show up a certain way just to fund our team. And that was like a really harsh reality. And so as we went through that, I was like, I think we need to intentionally scale back to give me some room to kind of imagine and be able to create new thoughts and new products. And so we did, and it was really hard.

Paul Povolni (32:11.145)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (32:11.513)
really, really hard. And one of the most difficult conversations was with Anna Olson, who is one of my best friends. And I actually didn't have the conversation. I like sat in the bathtub and like cried. Well, Paul went over to their house and let her know, because I was like, I can't do this. can't do this. And funny story, she actually called me mid bath. Yeah. And she's like,

Paul Povolni (32:26.859)
Yeah. Yeah, wow.

Rachel Pedersen (32:38.553)
I was so scared and I kept denying her calls because I was like, I can't handle this. too much. I can't believe we just let you go. so she's like, pick up the phone, stupid. It's about a dog. And I was like, what? So I answered her next call. And she's like, there are these dogs and we could have brother dogs. Do you want to have brother dogs? And I was like, yeah, I do.

Paul Povolni (32:43.027)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (32:50.581)
You

Paul Povolni (33:05.962)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (33:06.091)
And I felt like that was something so beautiful because it just showed me like there is hope after this because dude, that sucked. That sucked so bad. Just being like, goodbye to everyone. then, so Anna, we had this big conversation about like her stepping into the role of CEO of Pellinora, this consulting company that we started. We started it about a year ago, but we didn't get serious until six months ago. And I...

Paul Povolni (33:11.977)
Right. Right. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (33:35.917)
I'll be super honest, I didn't expect her to take it seriously. And I didn't expect her to step in fully because that was just my past experience with people. know, once you let them go from the known and the, you know, paid position, they kind of give up. And so when I saw how Anna stepped in, it kind of blew my mind. it was actually shocking. And so

Paul Povolni (33:47.529)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (34:03.383)
I'll share this. haven't shared this publicly anywhere yet. So in the last six months, we went from zero to 500,000 run rate. So it's thriving under her leadership. So Pellanora was

Paul Povolni (34:15.593)
Wow. Wow.

Paul Povolni (34:21.205)
Did she tell you why? Did she tell you why she stepped in like that?

Rachel Pedersen (34:26.009)
That's such a good question. I think there were two things she hasn't told me directly, but I could call her after this and find out for sure. Two things. One, I think she was at a place where she was like, I'm sick of being an employee for people. I want to own. I want to be an owner. I want things to happen. And last Christmas we actually have this like sit down.

Paul Povolni (34:50.709)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (34:55.575)
I also haven't told him even this either. So we sat down with like a whiteboard at Christmas and it was us two, our two husbands, cause the four of us are just besties, you know? And, we talked about how most of the greats had like a team that they could rely on no matter what. Like they all had each other's backs and they would, if one was tired or sick or whatever, the other would step in.

Paul Povolni (35:17.951)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (35:25.157)
And so we built out an entire plan to just for funsies, a billion. And you're like, we're going to call this like the syndicate. Like we'll have your kids backs. You guys have our kids backs forever. And I'll just be super honest. So deep down, I'm a skeptic and I don't believe people until push comes to shove. So even though we made that commitment, I was like, I don't know. I'll see. I'll see in time. If you

Paul Povolni (35:30.805)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (35:38.603)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (35:53.459)
Right, right, wait and see, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (35:54.729)
We really meant it. Yeah. So she meant it. So she wanted to be an owner. She wanted to grow something. She was sick and tired of the whole being pushed around kind of thing. the second thing too, so you know how there are some people who just have insane amounts of like vision and creativity and they aren't able to be on every day perfectly, right? Like they have off days, they have days they're sick or whatever.

Paul Povolni (36:21.117)
Right, right, right.

Rachel Pedersen (36:23.961)
Yeah, so she was looking for that. She was looking for someone who could show up and be like, I'm going to cast the vision. I'm going to share the strategy. I'm going to give you guidance, but I'm not going to be the implementer. She was literally kind of looking for that and didn't know. so, yeah, so she appreciates how I show up as a visionary and Palinora has been.

Paul Povolni (36:39.381)
Right.

Paul Povolni (36:44.33)
Wow.

Rachel Pedersen (36:49.539)
freaking awesome. Like seeing how our clients are growing is so cool and it's everything from marketing to operations. So it's been, it's been pretty cool.

Paul Povolni (36:54.602)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:00.511)
Yeah. And I think those kinds of partnerships are gold because, you know, there are the unicorns that are the visionary creative thinking ideas person, and that are also good at executing them and making them happen. I think those are unicorns. What happens more often than not is there's the creative person who's got a thousand ideas a minute. just, ideas just pop in their head all the time.

Rachel Pedersen (37:04.727)
Okay.

Paul Povolni (37:27.685)
all the time and they're great ideas and they're million dollar ideas. And that's kind of what HeadSmack's about is, you know, taking an idea and actually executing it is taking that HeadSmack moment, you know, from somebody that shares something and actually putting it into action. But for a lot of us, we struggle with that, especially those that are creative thinkers. so partnering with somebody that is an executor that makes it happen is priceless because, you know, we can all say

Rachel Pedersen (37:29.174)
Yep.

Paul Povolni (37:55.131)
I've had a million ideas and I actually saw somebody implement an idea that I once had, but I never did anything with it. You know, but finding somebody to take those ideas and then execute on them is so, valuable. And it sounds like that's what kind of what you found is, is somebody to be the person that executes and makes it happen.

Rachel Pedersen (38:14.177)
Yes. Yeah. I will say like, so I can execute, but it is so draining for me. Like so draining to the point where like for two days after I can't function. I like want to lay in bed all day. So I just work from bed, you know, watching TV shows or whatever. But yeah, I needed that person in my life and I still am actually kind of like

Paul Povolni (38:22.452)
Ryan.

Paul Povolni (38:29.193)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right, right.

Rachel Pedersen (38:42.103)
you know, pinch me, is this for real? Is this really happening? So far, yeah. It's pretty cool.

Paul Povolni (38:46.099)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think that's the thing is what's, what's easy for you is genius for somebody else. And so, you know, for you, the creativity and, and idea generation is easy. And for her, it's like, man, that that's genius. But to you, it's like, I, I do this easily. Like any, you know, that it happens for me easier. And then for her, probably the, the execution, making things happen comes a lot easier.

Rachel Pedersen (39:04.514)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (39:14.345)
You know, it's not impossible for you and it's not impossible for creative thinkers to execute as well. It's just, it's work for them. It's, it's, it's harder for them. They could do it, but it's just a little harder for them. And so I think that's pretty powerful as well is, is, know, finding, finding that person that that's this genius zone. They can do the other stuff, but they just thrive in that thing. And, you know, I've found for me even

You know, there are things that if I work really, really, really, really, really hard at, I can get average at it, you know, but there are other things, there are other things that if I, if I just give it some, there are some other things that if I just give it some time, I can like really be good at it, know, and I can really thrive at it. And I think that's where a lot of people kind of get stuck is they work on the stuff that if they work really hard at it, they can get average. And I think that distracts them.

Rachel Pedersen (39:45.382)
Ha

Rachel Pedersen (39:55.267)
Yep.

Rachel Pedersen (40:08.225)
there is like a whole truth bomb. Take on that's good. I like that.

Paul Povolni (40:13.539)
So tell us with what you guys are now doing. So you've got this great partnership. You've got the syndicate. You guys are ready to conquer the world. how are you conquering the world? What are you doing to help people themselves get unstuck and realizing that they need somebody to take them to the next level? What are you guys doing?

Rachel Pedersen (40:23.193)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (40:34.525)
man, okay, so a lot of our marketing still comes from my brand, because it's it's established, it's there, it's ready. mean, last year organically we reached minus like four big platforms, 105 million people, which is kind of mind blowing. I don't even feel like we did that good that last year. What?


Rachel Pedersen (43:14.387)
Yes. Okay. So on my platforms alone last year, I reached 105 million people and that doesn't include my Facebook profile, which reaches 20 million plus. don't know. It's crazy. and then a few other platforms like our blog, our podcast, any of the above. And so we use that a lot for our marketing and it works really well.

I was actually surprised because the rapport is there, the social proof is there, the know, and trust. And then with Pellanora, we are first and foremost working with people from the foundations and you'd be surprised. Well, maybe you wouldn't by how many people don't know like what their brand archetype or the four levels of brand archetype are.

Paul Povolni (43:43.476)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (44:08.529)
Like you have your persona, the outward facing in the shadow and all of that. And I feel like so many clients come to us and they're like, we want to be like Alex Hermosy. And I'm like, cute. You're nothing like him. It's never going to work. Like, no, let's do the brand archetype exercise and let's get your brand voice and the brand voice. We've got this, internal IP that is it's 87 total questions with three sub points for each.

Paul Povolni (44:21.225)
Right,

Rachel Pedersen (44:37.543)
So it's total like what 260 something points and it's everything from how do you use transitions to how do you bridge things to how do you format your segments rotations? What types of humor do you use? Did you know there's like a hundred plus versions of humor? Like we break it all down because yeah. So I use sarcasm.

Paul Povolni (45:00.831)
Wow, really?

Rachel Pedersen (45:05.361)
rarely because I don't understand it most of the time. So when people are sarcastic, I'm like, I can't tell. you joking? So once we realized like that was a huge part of how someone comes across and why most people who hire copywriters are disappointed. We're like, let's break this down into something big. And then we almost always do like it's, not pretty, but it's a rebrand. We'll double check like the colors. they align with your brand voice, your brand archetype, et cetera.

Paul Povolni (45:09.631)
Yeah.

Ha

Paul Povolni (45:25.161)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (45:34.695)
And so we start with that and we do that fast. Like it is rapid. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (45:38.089)
Yeah. So, so talk to me about the archetypes. somebody that might not have heard that term before, what, what do you mean by archetypes?

Rachel Pedersen (45:45.757)
yeah.

I love this. So Carl Jung is a genius in my opinion, well in many people's opinions, but Carl Jung, he created a few super monumental frameworks for A, brand archetypes and B, human inner internal cognitive functions.

So in the brand archetypes, there are 12 total and it's everything from the guru to the caregiver to the every man or every woman, the jester and there's 12 and each one represents kind of like how you show up. Now, when you go into the four layers, there's the persona. So this is how people perceive you, like the way you show up.

And that can sometimes be very different from our inner worlds, which I think is so fascinating because we get into psych here. We all also have a shadow and our shadow probably sneaks in creeps in all of the above. Like I know for a fact, my shadow is the jester.

Paul Povolni (46:43.551)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (46:57.155)
so I'm actually super goofy and kind of just like a screw off, like all the time. And so that like that creeps in. And if you're, if you're not careful to intentionally weave it in, people are left thinking like, why did this version of this person or this brand seems so off? And so you have to be careful about how you weave in the shadow, which I love. so yeah, so we dive into that also side note, everyone should look up.

Paul Povolni (47:07.412)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (47:18.9)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (47:26.885)
Not Myers-Briggs, but the cognitive functions that it's based on, because it is next level nerd out. So with brand archetypes, it determines everything from like the colors you should be using to make sense for who you are, how your brand shows up, whether it's a personal brand or a business, to even things like the types of humor you use. For example, if I am overly deprecating or overly like

Paul Povolni (47:45.993)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (47:56.691)
kind of clap back mode. It doesn't come across well. People are like, wait, I thought you were like the caregiver. I thought you were like here to like, snuggle me and tell me everything was going to be fine. So we help our clients a lot with this. And I've loved it. Like seeing the transformation and how they show up. We had one client who came to us and she said, I want to roll out like a super, I gotta be careful not to reveal her industry.

Paul Povolni (47:59.274)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Povolni (48:04.774)
Right, right.

Rachel Pedersen (48:24.795)
a super luxury brand. And we were like, you are the every woman and the caregiver. This is a no. Your audience will revolt if you share $100 aprons. Like it's not going to work. And like that saved her brand because otherwise she was going to go down a path. Yeah, it was just, it was crazy. So I love brand archetypes and I love Carl Jung and it's J U.

Paul Povolni (48:35.411)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (48:45.013)
Brian.

Paul Povolni (48:50.836)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (48:52.75)
NG for anyone wondering.

Paul Povolni (48:56.213)
So when it comes to the shadow person, the shadow version of you, when do you use that? When is that appropriate to reveal?

Rachel Pedersen (49:01.011)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (49:09.587)
It depends on the person. depends on their like primary persona, et cetera. For me, I do it like tongue in cheek. Sorry, like intentionally we'll be like, ha ha, just kidding. Or I'll be like, I'm just in a silly mood today. But yeah, for most brands, you have to be careful as to when you weave it in. Cause the shadow is the worst parts of us. And the thing that contradicts

Paul Povolni (49:24.533)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (49:36.554)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (49:39.587)
most of the time who we show up as. So I show up as this like caregiver, but at home with my friends, I'm kind of a jerk sometimes because I'm a goofball. Like I am making jokes about everything. I rail on every situation. And so if I did that in my public persona, people would just be like, I feel so confused and conflicted about who you are, you know? And I still do once in a while.

Paul Povolni (49:51.369)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (50:08.827)
I actually get in trouble a lot for it.

Paul Povolni (50:11.869)
Yeah. So even with the public persona, how much of that needs to be real and how much of that is possibly an alter ego?

Rachel Pedersen (50:16.273)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (50:22.917)
Are we really going there? man. man. Okay. this, this one's tough, Paul. Okay. So when you start your business, you have to make a decision, especially if you're going to be a personal brand where you're the face. Do I want to craft a persona that feels sustainable? And that is huge, huge, huge key or

Paul Povolni (50:25.203)
We are, let's do it.

Rachel Pedersen (50:52.263)
Do I want to show up as myself? Now I remember, do you remember when Jim Carrey did that documentary where he was talking about like, yeah, if you create an alter ego, you have to decide, am I going to live as this alter ego or am I going to be lowered into the grave as this alter ego? Now there was some wisdom to that, but I also want to bring another perspective because the more you grow, you will be crucified.

Paul Povolni (51:00.437)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (51:12.725)
Right.

Rachel Pedersen (51:22.171)
Either way, a hundred times out of a hundred, like people are mean online, just going to be super honest. So my big thought is, do I want to allow other people to crucify who I really am or do I want to have like one layer of separation that kind of protects me a little bit? And I am a fan of the latter and all that that entails. Feel free to ask more if you want.

Paul Povolni (51:24.107)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (51:31.518)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (51:51.219)
Yeah, so, did you ever watch the show Grey's Anatomy?

Paul Povolni (51:51.275)
Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. What, tell me a little bit more about that.

Paul Povolni (52:01.885)
Occasionally,

Rachel Pedersen (52:03.205)
Okay, so do you happen to remember Lexi Gray?

Paul Povolni (52:07.922)
No, I don't.

Rachel Pedersen (52:09.123)
well, anyone listening will know who I'm talking about who watches praise. So at my core, I am probably one of the biggest like sweethearts. My friends usually describe me as like the sweetheart of the group. Sweetheart, but jester, you know, and yeah, I'm super sensitive. I am emotional. I don't have a thick skin at all. And

Paul Povolni (52:11.679)
Ha ha ha.

Paul Povolni (52:25.311)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (52:38.087)
Really, it's almost like naive or pure, either way, whatever. So how I've chosen to add one layer of separation with how I show up online is I went to caregiver. So it's caregiver kind of every woman. So it's like, I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna support you, I'm gonna encourage you, all of the above. And just that little bit of a layer of separation has allowed me to not feel like.

Paul Povolni (52:42.463)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (52:55.359)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (53:05.241)
I am personally getting roasted every time I show up online. And for the most part, it's actually really helped. So I'm a fan, huge fan of alter egos. Just the biggest thing is you don't want to have an alter ego that is super different to who you are or else you just feel like you're masquerading all the time. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (53:09.531)
Right. Right.

Paul Povolni (53:24.309)
Right.

Paul Povolni (53:27.967)
Yeah. I would, I would call the alter ego and augmentation of a portion of you or a version of you because it is, because then it becomes a mask as opposed to just a, a version of you that's just augmented. it's, know, because even for me, like I, I, one of the things I wrestle with social media is putting myself out there and putting my face out there and, know, because

Rachel Pedersen (53:35.559)
Yes.

Rachel Pedersen (53:47.857)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (53:55.985)
In reality, I'm just kind of a quiet person. just like to keep to myself. I like to just chill with my family. Yeah. And so for me, my alter ego is this version of me being in front of the camera. It's me posting photos of my fat head on social media. It's me. You know, that's, that's, you know, that's, that's the side of me. That is my alter ego. It's when I step on stage to speak, that's an, that's a augmented version of the real me. mean, my

Rachel Pedersen (53:59.931)
Really?

Rachel Pedersen (54:12.573)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (54:25.747)
My family sees the, the joking fun storytelling side of me at one version, but on stage, I'm a different version and augmented version of that. And so I think, I think you're right in that is if, if you choose a archetype as a brand, if you choose an alter ego as a brand, if you're too far removed from that, then sustaining it is going to lead to frustration and pain. Even with you mentioned Jim Carrey, you know, he said,

Rachel Pedersen (54:26.003)
Hmm.

Paul Povolni (54:55.583)
Jim Carrey was a character that was not Jim Carrey. You know, it was a character he played and yeah, yeah. He just realized that every time I, people meet me, they expect me to be on, you know, they expect me to be the goofy stretchy face joking type person. And that got exhausting. And I think that's because he was so far removed of who he actually was. And so, you know, even with.

Rachel Pedersen (54:57.96)
Yes.

Rachel Pedersen (55:02.77)
and he burnt out.

Paul Povolni (55:24.841)
what you were saying, I think that's very true.

Rachel Pedersen (55:26.355)
Yeah. When I am in the zone as mom, so I'm pretty quiet. Like I'm supporting character, hands down. I remember like when my daughter was in her school musical and I sewed both of her dresses, I was so proud of them because they were like Broadway quality. Like I took on a project, I had no business taking on with those and I just went for it and I was like, I'm gonna...

Paul Povolni (55:53.195)
Hahaha

Rachel Pedersen (55:55.805)
figure it out and it made me go a little crazy for a little bit but that's fine. And I remember when opening night happened, I was in the locker room where all the girls were getting dressed and they didn't have someone manning the locker room and that kind of frustrated me because I was like these girls need help, they need help with zippers, they need help with buttons that just fell off.

So I ended up staying in the locker room for the whole opening night and I did that for four out of the five performances. And I remember feeling as alive as if I had been on stage. I loved that. I loved that backstage role. So as a mom and I think as a person, I'm a lot more low key. I like to kind of play backstage and...

Paul Povolni (56:37.417)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (56:47.663)
not have to think too much about all of the moving pieces and yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (56:51.795)
Right. And I think there are some people that are wired to be second fiddles. They're, they're, they're wired to support the person that maybe is out there and they get just as fulfilled and people don't, people that are not at that place that are not like that, they don't understand how come you don't want to be that person upfront, the one getting the accolades, the one, you know, doing all of that. it's like, I actually love supporting those who do that, you know,

Rachel Pedersen (57:04.635)
Yes. Yes.

Paul Povolni (57:20.007)
And I get as fulfilled doing that as if it was me up there or if I was the one doing the thing. And it sounds like that's what happens to you. And so, you know, when it comes to, you know, working with the personas, working with the archetypes, you know, what are some other things that people need to consider and also be weary of?

Rachel Pedersen (57:39.571)
Can we actually go one step removed on this one? Okay, so we're gonna go to another Jungian philosophy, which is the internal cognitive functions. So a lot of people know of like Myers-Briggs MBTI, which is the four letters, right? We all have four letters that are assigned to us that determine who we are and how we show up. Myers-Briggs is actually just pulled from Carl Jung's cognitive functions and his Myers-Briggs

Paul Povolni (57:59.53)
Right.

Rachel Pedersen (58:09.181)
Briggs, the four letter kind of archetypes in and of their own right. So this, this blew my mind. I'm so excited. I get to share this with you. Good question, by the way. So we all have four internal cognitive functions and they're in a set order based on who you are and how you test. And

This actually blew my mind. I'll have to look mine up because I don't have it memorized. This is one of the craziest things ever. cognitive function stacks. All right, I'm going to pull this up because it's so good. Basically, we all have what's called like our loops. Okay, so we have our primary or dominant.

Paul Povolni (58:49.547)
Good.

Rachel Pedersen (59:01.351)
We have our secondary or auxiliary. We have our tertiary and we have the fourth, which is our least developed. Now they all sound like, they all sound like a sound of music song or something. So I have like, N-I-F-E-T-I-S-E, N-I-F-E-T-I-S-E. And what blows my mind is, I know, doesn't it? Like, doh, adear.

Paul Povolni (59:16.996)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (59:26.867)
It does sound like sound of music.

Rachel Pedersen (59:31.251)
What's wild about this is we all have these loops where essentially your first, your second and your third can put you into this like sense of being stuck. So you might get into a sense of being stuck where it comes to like internal thinking like that's TI, right? Or yeah, TI. And

Because you're thinking internally, you're not vocalizing things. You're not expressing them to others. You're not connecting. You're kind of shutting down a little bit. And then let's say we go to intuitive internal, and that's your tertiary. Intuitive internal or introverted is going to have

you start to remember moments that feel the same. intuitively I remember that moment that felt the same. This was similar. I did mess up in that way. that's really embarrassing. Remember that time when, and that further like feeds your T.I. which then feeds your N.I. which feeds your T.I. And so you get stuck into these loops and every single person who's listening to this should look this up.

for your own MBTI type because the thing that usually breaks us out of these like stuckness moments is the thing that we avoid. So for example, yeah, so I get really shut down. I don't know if you feel that way. Like I get shut down. I wanna be alone. I don't wanna see anyone when I'm stuck. I'm like, no, it's alone, alone, alone. I'm not out there like partying. I'm like.

Paul Povolni (01:01:07.697)
Hmm... well.

Rachel Pedersen (01:01:24.775)
by myself, by myself, like how else am I messing up? This is fantastic everywhere. Okay, cool. And then the thing that would actually break me out of it is either like tactile experiences. So sewing something with a lot of different fabrics, feeling something, gardening. Gardening is a big line for me or getting out there and having these feeling moments with people. So meeting up with people I love and adore and talking.

Paul Povolni (01:01:24.885)
Ryan. Ryan.

Paul Povolni (01:01:42.516)
Right, wow.

Rachel Pedersen (01:01:54.935)
it's so hard when you're stuck. So I think this plays in big, yeah, into how you choose to show up in your persona. So for example, if I were to pick the outlaw, I already know it would kill me as my brand archetype. Well, on so many levels. But if I were to pick the outlaw, it would mean that I would be knowingly pissing people off, which would kick me into my cognitive loop.

Paul Povolni (01:01:55.562)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:02:11.59)
Ha ha.

Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:02:24.668)
and all the time I would be whistling with that naturally. So I think about those things and I think they're kind of cool. Yeah, thanks. It's not mine, it's Young's.

Paul Povolni (01:02:25.397)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (01:02:30.185)
That is so good.

Paul Povolni (01:02:35.721)
Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, like you were talking about, if you choose the outlaw and you're not a person that likes conflict, or you don't like to debate, or you don't like, when people hate you or don't like you, then you're going to constantly be in this frustration of, know, I'm, I want to be the outlaw. I want to be, you know, the, want to push against everybody else and I'm going to stir up trouble. And it's like, yeah, but it's the people are going to push back and people are going to, you know, not like you. Are you okay with that?

Rachel Pedersen (01:02:39.197)
This is it.

Paul Povolni (01:03:04.511)
And for some people, they're like, yeah, totally I'm fine with that. but if you're not, then you need to rethink it because, know, as we talked about, you know, the, the personas, the, the archetypes are best when they're an augmentation of, of a part of you, as opposed to a totally fake character, because that'll wear you out and that'll send you into spirals of, of depression or frustration or whatever. because, know, it's not who you are. It's not how you're wired to be.

Rachel Pedersen (01:03:27.432)
Yes.

You

Paul Povolni (01:03:34.471)
And then you have to relook at what, you know, am I getting frustrated because I'm trying to be what the cool people online are? You know, they, you know, they, they say, this online or, or act this way or behave this way or stir up trouble on social media. Cause it gets attention. And you're like, and if that's not you, then suddenly you're like, people are hating on me. People don't like me, you know, because you've tried to be a person that you're not. And so I love that you're talking about that with your clients.

Rachel Pedersen (01:03:43.222)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (01:03:50.963)
you

Thank you.

Paul Povolni (01:04:03.664)
is finding that authentic self and finding ways to augment that, but not become a fake version of you.

Rachel Pedersen (01:04:09.832)
Yeah.

Yep. I think that's honestly huge. yeah, if I were to try to be, I don't know if you know, like Dan Henry, we've been buddies for years. He's so funny. so he's very much so the outlaw, like no question. And it gets him into a lot of trouble and most of the time he can handle it. Right. Like he does halfway decently with it. He was raised by a shock jock father. And, so.

Paul Povolni (01:04:20.373)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:04:28.031)
Ryan.

Paul Povolni (01:04:39.359)
Hahaha

Rachel Pedersen (01:04:41.671)
But I look at that and I'm like, dude, I make one post that's like just a little bit taken wrong. and I can't handle it. And there is no way I could build a sustainable company with that. No way. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:04:51.189)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:04:55.433)
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, I haven't found that too. was, I was posting stuff that was pushing people's buttons because there is that side of me that likes doing that to admit it. But I, know, but I'm not a debater. Like I'm not an arguer and I'm not a debater. I just have very, very rebellious thoughts. have very, you know, opinionated thoughts, but it just, doesn't mean that I want to argue about it. It's just, and so I probably need to journal.

Rachel Pedersen (01:05:04.317)
Yep.

I'm

Rachel Pedersen (01:05:20.399)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:05:24.309)
more than I need to social media.

Rachel Pedersen (01:05:25.587)
Okay.

I love that you said that because just the other day, so I posted something very contrarian and I was like just I was pissed off about something and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna sub tweet this and I posted it on my Facebook profile, which I think sometimes I forget how's like 400,000 followers and so I posted it and people I loved and adored were like Rachel, why would you post this? This is so hurtful and I was like.

my gosh, this is about like one specific situation. And I commented back and I said, no, it's just a sub tweet, but I probably should get a journal. I said that. That's so funny.

Paul Povolni (01:06:07.007)
Hahaha!

Paul Povolni (01:06:11.307)
So yeah, and that's, and I think that goes back to what we're saying is, is be the, be the real you and, recognize when things are out of character and, you talked about perception. So talk a little bit about perception and managing perception as well, because that's, that's more important because perception is greater than reality for some people, because what they perceive and what is real isn't always the same thing.

Rachel Pedersen (01:06:14.353)
Yes. Yes.

Rachel Pedersen (01:06:35.165)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:06:39.239)
I would actually say most people, kind of like even people who are more educated or brilliant included, we all kind of, whether we mean to or not, believe the perception that's put out there for us. And so it's interesting because it affects everything from how I show up with my husband, Paul.

if it was up to Paul, he would never be online. Not even once. Like he is so private. Yeah, he is so private. And then it was probably, let's see, five or six years ago, we hired a business coach who is brilliant. And he shared, listen, every time that you guys go a few months without posting about your marriage, people assume you're on the rocks. And we were like, that's the

Paul Povolni (01:07:14.655)
Yeah, my wife's the same way.

Rachel Pedersen (01:07:37.459)
dumbest thing we've ever heard. Like that's so stupid, but it was actually true. And now, so I'll be super honest. Like I am someone who is very, very lazy with my physical appearance. Like most of the time I look like a hot mess. My hair is like greasy. I have bad skin. I just wear whatever shirt I got on Amazon. I don't care. And it was actually Anna, my business partner who said,

Paul Povolni (01:07:40.819)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:08:06.971)
Rachel, you need to show up at least some type of standard because otherwise people assume that you're struggling and you're like mentally not all there. And I love you. And she said it completely with love and it was welcomed. She's like, respectfully, Bestie, you need to grow up. And I was like, so I've been slowly working on it ever since then.

Paul Povolni (01:08:31.57)
Hahaha

Rachel Pedersen (01:08:32.711)
I just don't care because I don't like see how that makes a difference in who we are at all. Like I straight up believe, you know, a present wrapped with a Target bag and a present wrapped with gorgeous luxury paper are the same, you know, if they're the same thing inside. But that's not how the world sees things. And so even things like how my background looks matter. Like people want to see like, is this a beautiful, organized, united front? Can I trust this person? And that does matter to them.

Paul Povolni (01:08:47.369)
Right. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:08:55.125)
Right.

Paul Povolni (01:09:00.903)
Yeah. Right.

Rachel Pedersen (01:09:02.021)
Is it the dumbest thing ever? Sure. But we all fall for it. yeah, perception.

Paul Povolni (01:09:06.751)
Yeah well and we say we don't judge books by their cover but we absolutely do.

Rachel Pedersen (01:09:11.091)
We do, absolutely. I actually have a book. I don't know where it is. I'm not gonna be able to find it. So it's a book where it is the one of the best books I read at the time that I read it. It was really new for me, like the concept of like wealth consciousness and stepping into believing like you can make more money and that money is just an energetic.

transfer and that was super radical to me when I read it and the cover is so hideous. Paul, it is disgusting and the title is awful. The book, I'll call it out. It's, happy pocket full of money. The title is stupid. The cover is hideous. Like I resisted that book with everything I have and it ended up being like one of the most pivotal books I've ever read. So, but we do.

Paul Povolni (01:09:57.845)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:10:05.216)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:10:06.087)
We do judge books by their cover, absolutely. Yep.

Paul Povolni (01:10:08.979)
Right. Right. Well, maybe we judge books by their content, but we're attracted to them by their cover or where they get their, attention by their cover. But we judge them by their content ultimately, because there's a lot of great books with ugly covers, but initially, unless people know about it, unless there's a reputation and all of that other stuff that's to do with branding, word of mouth, you know, all of that stuff.

Rachel Pedersen (01:10:15.827)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Paul Povolni (01:10:35.103)
that we do, we'll make a decision based on what we see, whether it's worth looking at or not, but ultimately we judge it by its content and whether it's worthwhile reading and sharing and telling others about it. And so, when it comes to helping businesses with what you're doing now, we've talked about the personas, we've talked about archetypes, what are some other things that for a business owner or for somebody that's trying to make an impact online,

that would be a head smack for them to consider that maybe they hadn't thought about before.

Rachel Pedersen (01:11:06.867)
and

Huge, huge, huge thing here. More business owners need to compile archives of their IP, meaning videos of you talking about what makes you different, whether it's educational videos, webinars, training videos, coaching videos. The number of times that I talk to someone for Pellanora and they're like, we want to hire you. We want...

basically to have like a team be able to handle all of our content and I'm like, that's great. How many hours of archives of content do you have? Like blogs, lead magnets, emails, and they're like, we don't have any of that. We don't have any videos. And I'm like, there's nothing to extract from. One of our favorite processes, and this is super fun, is quote extraction.

So we find original quotes from business owners and then clean them up and make them prettier, like more standalone truth bombs, et cetera. And then we also do what's called IP extraction. So we create these like roundups. each one has 10 points in it. you've actually probably seen like my posts where it's like, it's a post and there's like gold and stuff, but then there's like 10 specific, like these are the steps to take and then a little more gold after it.

Paul Povolni (01:12:31.369)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:12:32.733)
Those are all just my IP extractions. I don't have to rewrite them every time. So we do these for clients all the time, but if you don't have anything documented, there's nothing to work from. So you better be ready to like sit and write and record. One of my greatest, one of my favorite things about my business is that I have thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of me speaking about my IP in many different.

Paul Povolni (01:12:47.819)
Mm.

Rachel Pedersen (01:13:01.843)
areas so I can easily extract anything I want, which is kind of cool. But yeah, make sure this is also a big thing. once in a while, I hate when this happens, but it does happen. We'll encounter a client and I'll say like, okay, so could you give me this type of video recorded? And they'll send me back a video and it's like, here are 10 things you should do to raise your prices. And they're like,

Paul Povolni (01:13:04.617)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:13:30.727)
Believe in yourself. Number two, charge more. And I'm like, you gave us nothing. This was nothing. We can't work with this. You have to have something that is actually a mechanism that impacts people. So make sure there are deliverables in the things that you're sharing as you document and archive your content.

Paul Povolni (01:13:40.821)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:13:55.339)
So give me an example of that for somebody that just heard what you said and it's like, yeah, I totally have done the wrong thing. What would be an example of just something that I should write thing?

Rachel Pedersen (01:13:57.544)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (01:14:01.651)
Okay, Okay, so Here's an example like okay, so let's actually use the same one if I were to record a 15 minute YouTube video and that's the start of the archive right a video content How to charge more so I'd be like step one You're going to create a three-tier proposal meaning there are three options for your prices. There's

you know, low to medium, there is a medium to high, and then there's like the whole enchilada. Step two, you absolutely are gonna wanna send your proposals in line order format, meaning in the email copy, so that your clients can quickly make a decision and respond, mine item, instead of having to download a proposal, a PDF, and then trying to track it down in their million downloads. All right, step number three.

You're going to basically create your top tier ticket item based on every single thing that they mentioned in their discovery call that they ever possibly dreamed of. That's what we call the whole enchilada. Do not offer that at your low ticket price because you don't want to do all that work for that price, trust me. Okay, so does that make sense? It's like it's specific.

Paul Povolni (01:15:25.063)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:15:29.299)
Actionable etc. So as you're going through ask yourself could someone pull out a notebook and actually take notes on this process And if the answer is no, yeah Rethink it so I think that helps a lot

Paul Povolni (01:15:43.787)
That's good. Yeah, that's really good. so, with the folks that you help, what are some of the other mindsets or some of the other head smacks that you need to give them to set them on the right track? You mentioned, know, collecting, archiving, you know, content, ideas, IP. What are some other things that they need to consider that you go in there and challenge them with and help them with?

Rachel Pedersen (01:15:49.245)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:15:58.919)
Yeah.

Thank

Rachel Pedersen (01:16:09.619)
One of the biggest ones is the so what test This one is fun where when I go in if they've if they've either been managing managing their own social or working with their team To manage social and they're like, I don't know. We're putting out tons of content It doesn't seem to be working. I go. Okay Do I have permission for a minute to give you just like serious tough love because this is gonna be tough and I wait until they say yes always because otherwise

It's not taking long otherwise. I say none of your content passes the so what test. If I were a stranger, I find your profile or your content, I would literally scroll past it so fast because I would be like, so what? So what? What does this mean for me? Nothing. And I would just scroll right past. So that's a big one. That's, think, a huge head smack moment because

Paul Povolni (01:16:43.433)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:17:00.83)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:17:07.463)
By the way, I have to do this for myself too, because sometimes I'll post content and I'm like, this is brilliant. And then nothing happens. I'm like, take on it. It didn't pass the so what test. Nobody cares. I care, but they don't. Shoot.

Paul Povolni (01:17:14.933)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:17:20.627)
Yeah. So how do they fix the so what? so how do they, how do they write better? How do they create better content to pass the so what test?

Rachel Pedersen (01:17:27.283)
I love your questions. So the biggest thing you go back to is extracting your clients actual pain points. And I'm not talking pain points like I want to do better. I want life to be more smooth. No, like you have to find essentially why is your person crying because they're crying about something. They're crying because their skin has been rough since they've been in perimenopause. They're crying because

They used to be hot and now they're not and they're sad and they don't know how to get it back. Your client is crying because they used to hit, you know, $50,000 months and lately they've been at like 12,000 and they can barely make payroll and they're covering their payroll from their personal savings account. So when I do pain point extraction, when I do this process, by the way, it's really, it's not cool. It's like detective style. So I go into Facebook.

Paul Povolni (01:18:22.634)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:18:23.825)
Yeah, I'll create fake Facebook profiles and go into Facebook groups to find the words in their exact target markets, how they phrase it. And then I compile it all into massive documents and then extract the common themes. And I don't think this is done enough. Why is your person actually crying? Because everyone cries.

Paul Povolni (01:18:45.961)
Yeah. When I, and I love what you said about going into the Facebook groups and extracting the actual language. Cause I think, I think sometimes we can get, you know, used to be called corpse speak. You know, we get into this language that totally makes sense to us totally is using the words and the phrasing, how we talk about the problem, how, you know, the, the, the, we phrase the problem, how we articulate it, but

Rachel Pedersen (01:18:52.38)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (01:19:10.993)
Asking the question of how is your ideal client or how is your ideal customer? How did they talk about that problem? Like when they are laying awake at night, when they're crying, when they're feeling the pain, how, what did they Google for to solve it? What did they ask the question of their therapist to solve it? Like what's their language that they're using? And until you understand that,

Rachel Pedersen (01:19:27.633)
Yes.

Paul Povolni (01:19:37.141)
You're going to be missing the what if right. Or so what, you know, the, the, you're going to be missing that communication because you're not using the same language. You're talking to foreign language with them. Yeah, that's pretty powerful.

Rachel Pedersen (01:19:48.237)
Absolutely. Like, and one that I share a lot. like, I'm good at business and I'm not great at like style or like staying up looking. I, sometimes I age and sometimes I'm like, I look good. Okay. and, that's just better for me, but it's like an actual pain point. And sometimes I'll see people put like things like, how to reverse your aging naturally. I'm like, no,

Paul Povolni (01:19:57.285)
Hahaha.

Rachel Pedersen (01:20:16.851)
Cardamom wants that. That doesn't sound appealing. I want how to glow up in 14 days or less in your thirties or in your forties. That's what I'm searching for probably every night.

Paul Povolni (01:20:20.063)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:20:28.861)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (01:20:34.825)
Yeah. Well, and then the way you phrase that too, like it gives a very clear outcome. It gives a very clear timeline, which is way more powerful than just what, you know, what you had mentioned earlier. And so I think that's powerful as well as, is given a very clear outcome, very clear timeline is way more attractive. And that's the language they want to hear, you know, how to get a beach bod before, you know, somewhere in five weeks or three weeks or whatever.

Rachel Pedersen (01:20:39.424)
huh.

Rachel Pedersen (01:20:42.769)
Yes. Yes.

huh.

Rachel Pedersen (01:20:54.439)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Pedersen (01:21:01.383)
Yup.

Paul Povolni (01:21:02.673)
is way more attractive than how to look better, you know? So I think that's awesome. Well, this is this has been an amazing conversation. What's a head smack that you want to share that I haven't asked you?

Rachel Pedersen (01:21:06.204)
Yeah.

Rachel Pedersen (01:21:15.183)
is a head smack I want to share. Okay, for every hour you spend on this is for everyone on YouTube, searching up tutorials or advice on marketing business, all the above, go spend five hours studying psychological effects, frameworks, phenomenons, methods, and all of the above. So

Once I started doing that and prioritizing studying psychology over like what's on marketing, which is chewed up and spit out, psychology, just, know, it, like, it changed everything for me. Like I could go into any business and instantly use the frameworks that affects the levers, the methods, et cetera. So much faster instead of being like, well, one time so and so said on a YouTube video or a webinar.

It changed the entire process. So go study psychology, human behavioral science.

Paul Povolni (01:22:22.923)
That's awesome. Well, I see you have quite a collection of books well organized behind you by color, which is kind of weird to me, because as you can see, mine are organized by topic, because I'd never be able to find anything. But if you had to just grab three books or three ideas, something was happening. It was house fire. was...

Rachel Pedersen (01:22:26.499)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:22:47.851)
You were leaving on a vacation and you had to just grab three books and the rest of them you couldn't have access to or three ideas. What would they be?

Rachel Pedersen (01:22:56.325)
Number one, this is Super Woo Woo, but The Complete Notes from the Universe by Mike Dooley. This book is like my fortune cookie anytime I'm feeling down or out or even just get a little bit lost. Number two, Great Leads by Michael Masterson. It's all about like the psychology of hooks and headlines. Huge fan of it. And number three,

Ooh, I'm trying to think of ideas now, because I'm like, ooh, ideas. I like that. That's a good, I've never heard anyone ask about ideas. it's a quote and a methodology. So the quote is, so whenever you think that something is going to take too long, whenever you're like, I can't learn coding, it's going to take me six months to even get halfway decent, or my husband can't become a pilot. That's going to take two years.

it is this quote, the time will pass anyways. And that has shifted the way I think about everything from we've written so many books since I heard that quote, I started learning coding, my husband's about to pass his private pilot license, like it's changed everything for me.

Paul Povolni (01:24:04.927)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (01:24:17.257)
Right. Wow. Love that. Rachel, this has been amazing and I'm sure we could talk for a few more hours. You're a wealth of knowledge and experience. And this has been wonderful and I've really, really enjoyed it. So if people want to work with you, people are like, okay, I need to get some stuff on track. Who is the person that you can help best and who is the person that you probably couldn't help?

Rachel Pedersen (01:24:22.853)
Yours? yeah. Thank you.

Rachel Pedersen (01:24:40.627)
My favorite people to work with are people who are at least semi established to established. I need stuff to work with in order to assess what's worked, what hasn't, how to improve things, kind of get our, you know, like our spikes into the mountain together. I don't work well with people who are brand new in any capacity. I don't do well with startups. I've done it many times and I don't do it anymore.

Paul Povolni (01:25:10.249)
Yeah. Yeah. And what's the best way to get ahold of you?

Rachel Pedersen (01:25:15.057)
Okay, speaking of perception, depending on when this launches or goes live. I apologize for the perception of my website. It's hideous. I'm actually super stubborn right now. I'm redesigning my own website because I'm like, I want to do it and it's taking longer than planned. So go to Rachel Peterson.com. All E's and a D in my last name. My website is hideous. Yes, I know this. It's fine. It'll be gorgeous soon.

Paul Povolni (01:25:25.675)
You

Paul Povolni (01:25:33.444)
Hahaha

Paul Povolni (01:25:43.467)
And I'll put a link to that in my show notes as well. so if people want to get a hold of you, I'll send them over to your website. Well, thank you so much for coming on and I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

Rachel Pedersen (01:25:54.461)
Thank you for having me. This was awesome. You asked really good questions.

Paul Povolni (01:26:00.011)
Well, thank you. Well, you have a great day. Take care.

Rachel Pedersen (01:26:02.363)
You too. Bye, Paul.

Paul Povolni (01:26:05.172)
Bye bye.