Marcus Camenzuli / Email Marketing. Full Stack Marketer To 7-8 Figure Personal Brands

Email Marketing Masterclass!

Many businesses struggle with converting cold leads into buyers, often relying on high-pressure sales tactics that leave both the seller and potential customer frustrated and exhausted.

Imagine having a marketing system that naturally attracts and nurtures prospects, turning them into eager buyers who trust your brand and value your solutions.

Today's guest, Marcus Camenzuli, reveals how he transformed his frustrating experience in high-ticket sales into a powerful marketing system that creates predictable results. Stick around to learn how to turn your audience's attention into reliable revenue without the constant push for sales..

Key Takeaways:
    1. The power of email sequences in warming up cold leads.
    2. Why your copywriting needs to be simple, direct, and valuable.
    3. How to solve problems in sequence to build lasting relationships.
    4. The importance of aligning your sales and marketing efforts.
    5. How to use small wins to keep prospects engaged.

Link: https://www.facebook.com/mcamenzu

#EmailMarketing #MarketingStrategy #LeadGeneration #CopywritingTips #SalesConversion #AudienceEngagement #ValueBasedMarketing #MarketingAutomation #BusinessGrowth #HEADSMACK

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (01:46.774)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I'm excited to have another misfit with me. Marcus Camenzuli is with me and he is a full stack marketer to seven to eight figure personal brands. Welcome Marcus. How you doing, man?

Marcus Camenzuli (01:54.551)
Yes.

Marcus Camenzuli (02:15.159)
Great, it's great, it's good to be on here. Great,

Paul Povolni (02:18.146)
Looking forward to today's conversation and learning what it means to be a full stack marketer for personal brands. so Marcus, tell me a little bit about yourself. I'm a fan of superheroes and I love hearing origin stories. And so give me a little bit of the origin story of Marcus and maybe some of the head smacks that brought you to where you're at and what you're doing right

Marcus Camenzuli (02:41.355)
Yeah. So, well back when, you know, that pandemic hit, you know, that thing that when that hits, that, you know, I was in sales at the time that I kind of, and then I, was put on pause at my job. And then I started to work from home at that job. And then later on, I decided to move on from that job because I just saw the benefits of being able to, you know, more work flexibly and stuff. and that's what's

I was always in sales for my entire life, so that's what put me into online sales, like high ticket sales for people with expertise. They'd be selling it to particular audience, know, the whole jam. I did that for four years.

Paul Povolni (03:18.37)
So how did you get into sales? Was that like your first job out of high school, out of college? Like how did, how did you end up in sales?

Marcus Camenzuli (03:23.317)
No. Well, I was in college and I was bartending and I had lost my bartending job. And then I actually had to drop school because I had to find a job so couldn't pay my bills. And then when I dropped out of school, was like, okay, I need to now recoup the money I lost from school to go do it again. And I was like, okay,

Bartending kind of caps up with how many people you can wow and get tips from and it's pretty exhausting. So that's when I fell into sales. I like, I can't do anything else. I just took like the, there's some people skills you get from bartending just goes into it, right? That's how it kind of landed. that, and then I stuck with it just cause like, okay, you know, this is going pretty good and you know, it can probably take me some places. And I was always planning to go back to school, but

I just kept going, was like, actually, I didn't even know why I was in school, so I was like, I just dropped that whole idea altogether, you know? before I was selling medical and dental packages, yeah, so some B2B, some B2C back then.

Paul Povolni (04:16.93)
Yeah. What was the sales job?

Paul Povolni (04:23.958)
Okay.

Marcus Camenzuli (04:31.015)
And then it grew into like when I was in the online space, like selling to SaaS founders for like business coaching. There was also B2C markets, B2B markets, many different ones that we're all aware of. then.

This whole time when I was in sales, there was very big months, very low months, and I just was having a really hard time looking after myself. Oftentimes, I'd be getting on the phone with people who were very cold to what we were doing, and the company was paying a lot of money for these calls, and I was expected to close them, and I was a superstar salesperson when I had hot leads, but if I had cold leads, I didn't even feel like, this isn't even the job for me. I can't do this, right?

Paul Povolni (05:10.156)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus Camenzuli (05:12.555)
You know, it was the spectacle. I felt like I was about to pull like rabbits out of my hat or something or like a magician. I was like, and I dealt with it for a while. It was so stressful. was like, there has to be an easier way here. And I would always I was always a writer. Like I would write people's essays in school for money. Say in that life, like it's because I'm past past that chapter. But that I always had a knack for it. And then I just I got so down in the dumps and just dark because it was getting very dark.

the whole sales thing and just being in a very rough place trying to look after myself and my family that I then just started to write just to escape it. was like, my self -efficacy went so down because I felt like I couldn't do this. I felt that was good one week, good one month, and then I completely lost the next month. I just started to write because I was decent at it and I just wanted to feel good at something again. And then it hit me like, yeah, these calls that I'm taking that aren't really set up properly.

They are coming from emails, they're coming from ads, they're coming from sales pages, video sales letters. I'm like, well, maybe there's a hole I can fill here. And then I just took that, I hired a bunch of mentors, the best in the game that many people would know of, and just went all in on just becoming a very skilled direct response copywriter and marketing strategist. And then I was able to take that and really fix that problem. Working with sales teams that like, know,

appointment setting teams who are dealing with these leads to set and they want like hot leads, you wanna make that, you wanna strategically produce that, not just have it be a random thing based on probability, right? And I've been able to take people with email lists of 40, 50 ,000 subscribers where they're getting maybe a handful of calls, not really monetizing, it's just kind of like a nurture mechanism to then monetizing upwards of six figures per month with them just from being able to set up systems that

make good hot leads with rates, people ready to actually talk about getting the help they need from a company rather than just being in this exploring phase that really doesn't help anybody. So that's what kind of led me to here and a lot of head smacks along the way.

Paul Povolni (07:20.686)
So what were some of the head smacks that some of these mentors started sharing with you that started resetting your thinking about sales?

Marcus Camenzuli (07:29.793)
like the problem I was, I was experiencing or like, or like how works

Paul Povolni (07:33.676)
Yeah, with the frustration, said you hired mentors to help you out. So what were some of the things that they started sharing with you that helped to reset some of your thinking around sales or give you the tools that you needed to move

Marcus Camenzuli (07:43.467)
Yeah. Well, you'll have people have very, very, very different awareness levels when they come into a sales process. Some will be like, I'll use the analogy. It's very akin to like somebody knows somebody, something stinks in their house, but they don't really know where it's coming from. Like they know there's a problem, but they don't know if it's coming from the trash can. They don't know if it's from mold. They don't know it's from something like something rotten, the wood rotting in their house. They, they, they, they don't know what it could be.

And so while it seems like they have a problem and they're experiencing symptoms, they don't really know the solution, what it could be. And often that kind of person on a call in a sales process, yeah, they're showing signs that like, yeah, this could be a great lead for like to pass on to the deeper sales team, spend hours with, try to close them and do all that jazz. But it isn't really, they're not at that level yet. And you would often see it where like they're experiencing pain, but

when it comes time to actually accept mentally accepting the solution that somebody's offering, it's still very far away. Right. And then that's where a lot of email marketing comes into play. Cause it is a more solution aware. it's a more solution aware space where you can really like bridge that gap where they understand it. And once they understand it, what, what it's like going back to like the, it's something smells in the house. Like if they know it's now like something's rotting in the wood, okay. Now like they're more open to solutions that are more around that. Right. It just makes it much more productive and much less.

Baggage at the end that could have been avoided way earlier. So that was put in my head because I always thought like, yeah, person's in pain, jump all over it, right? And that's what a lot of people think, but there's different flavors of that that you have to really be calculated around.

Paul Povolni (09:17.761)
Ryan Ryan

Paul Povolni (09:24.886)
Right. And so, you know, as you started implementing some of these things that they started teaching you, how did you make that your

Marcus Camenzuli (09:34.507)
Well, cause I would often, whenever I work with say a client, would, I don't just go like, like what's your product, what's the program? And then this, it's, go very deep because there's, you'll have different kinds of avatars and like, you'll start to see like, you have a whole like tangible market, but there's very different kinds of people in that. like, they just have different flavors of the same pain points. And, when I would take that, like when often we would run say ads to lead magnets or low ticket products, there's a flavor of that.

pain or problem embedded into that that they're either responding to and we can talk around that with a lot of marketing automations and things like that. And so it just allowed me to really see more with like a developed eye, like how can we really personalize everybody's journey on the way to like actually like being ready to explore say like a high ticket service that costs somewhere of like 10 to $20 ,000 when somebody's maybe never made that kind of decision in their life, like have it actually become organically rather than

it being pushed and pushed in the sales process and now we're kind of in push sales, not really in pull sales. And I find when you really can flip that around, people are being pulled in for the right reasons. And that does a big difference with like just the refund rates on the backend too, because people are getting, because they want to and they're deciding to, but they're coming to those conclusions on their own rather than being pushed, you know? And so I find when you just get that level of depth, you can foster that, you

Paul Povolni (10:59.544)
Yeah. And so when it comes to, you know, email marketing, a lot of people are like, really email? that, isn't email dead? We've heard people talking about email being dead for a long time. So, so what do you tell them when they, they're like, is email really a relevant thing? Like, let's get into Facebook. Let's get into whatever. What do you tell

Marcus Camenzuli (11:05.525)
Yeah

It's dead. It's dead.

Marcus Camenzuli (11:19.629)
Well, it's funny, email's been dying, I think, since like 2002 or something. It's just like, it's a slow, painful death. But I always say like, I mean, if it were dead, you wouldn't see the biggest personality driven brands utilizing email to book quality sales calls with very sophisticated kinds of people. Like, you if you take like Dan Martell, you sound to SaaS founders, they get, I know the people on his team, they like,

they heavily utilize email marketing. They double down on it. And then really email's a follow -up mechanism. That's really what it is. And you you'll have like three kinds of buyers who have the automatic, like they just, they just buy right away. And like, that's usually what you get profitable with, with ads is like you get profitable on those and you have the frequency where they just need to hear and see from you more. And then you have time based where like it just, they just have to like, you just need a certain amount of time. You want to like, convince that to be as as possible, but email's a follow -up mechanism.

You know, and typically people don't like reading emails, but it's often because they're not treating it really properly. They're not really, like there's a lot of personality -driven brands that are sending very templated style emails that lack personality, that really aren't speaking in the voice of the personality behind it. It's, and they're not really getting anything from it. Or they're often just like, it's always like push and push and push where, you know, like people always, like you can't get around the,

need for wanting to gain things to have more security status, survival and reproduction. And when you can talk around things where like subconsciously that's what they feel they're gaining and they're able to like your shining light on their reality that they're like really navigating in the dark. That's why they got into your world in the first place. Well, then it becomes a place where they actually start. They want to read your name sticks out when they actually, you know, when it hits their inbox. And it's a thing where like, when you get value from somebody,

Paul Povolni (13:10.262)
Yeah, yeah,

Marcus Camenzuli (13:17.227)
you view them much very differently. And there's a lot of people who like they treat their lead magnets as just a thing to get the email and then they start sending emails, but you can use email marketing to actually get in. And that's where I often come in. It's like, are people actually getting value from the things they're downloading from us? Cause if they're getting value from us, then they're going to want to read. Like that's when you start paying attention to people. like, yeah, I gained from this person sharing information with me. I'm to pay attention to them more and people who don't, then I say mentally, no. And it's very hard to win those people back. Right.

Paul Povolni (13:32.226)
Right.

Marcus Camenzuli (13:46.367)
Getting that right early on and keeping it going is why. Email is a perfect way to do that. And then the other thing with email too, is it's a personal place. You post on Facebook and Facebook marketing, all that stuff, it's great, but it's one to many. People comment, everyone sees the comments, Whereas email, it's very private and you also get emails from your grandmother there, from your mom, your dad. So it can be this place where you now get put into that kind of world. We used Dan Bartel example.

Paul Povolni (14:11.937)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (14:14.433)
Dan Martell's one those guys with all those. He's who I look for in my personal place. It's such a way to build relationships and relationships are the whole thing with like, you know, monetizing high ticket offers, right? know?

Paul Povolni (14:25.432)
So when it gets to getting to sending the emails is one thing, but what are some of the work that you do even before you get to the point that you're sending out emails? What are some of the things that you've got to help clients with and educating them about email and about that kind of marketing that just makes a big difference for

Marcus Camenzuli (14:45.579)
Well, you know,

You'll like different, you'll, there's, much different ways to speak to people in general. And, you know, like, and anybody who's a business owner, know, like, you can market to people and get, get lots of leads, but they're terrible leads. And, or you can also make great leads bad by just speaking to them in the wrong way. So like, often, like we look at, for example, a market, like I have a lot that's in the legal business and like, like they sell to lawyers. can imagine how on the dot you got to be selling to fricking lawyers, right? I mean,

Paul Povolni (15:18.924)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcus Camenzuli (15:19.809)
They look at all the specifics, but they look for the specifics, right? So while traditional direct response marketing is like, it can be like, hey, don't give them too much of the how, stay away from that, but you can still talk around the how without giving them the how, just give them the what of the how. So it's a way for them to feel like, yeah, I'm getting the specifics, but they're not really getting like the secret sauce that's in the program, right? Like there's a way to do that, but you should do that with speaking to some markets. Or like if you have people who are more analytical,

They typically want to follow processes and they want things laid out in systems. And so often in your marketing and your copywriting, you wanna like even structure your products that way. You wanna structure your whole marketing message that way. Many people are like that, but you also have people like salespeople. They don't wanna follow processes. They often are in sales because they didn't go the usual way. They kinda wanna do whatever they want. And many entrepreneurs are like that. And so you wanna, that's where they wanna discover things and do things on their own. So like these are like ways that you

Paul Povolni (16:12.78)
Yeah,

Marcus Camenzuli (16:17.889)
then embed into your marketing to speak to them more and it's like you're meeting what they're looking for without trying to push them. It's not like what you're saying, it's how you're saying it. So I have to really talk through these things because often before we start sending emails, we have to look at their front end stuff and their ads and we have to tweak those first so then it just improves things down the line. And then often we reveal a lot of things that they just either had biases about their audience that they just didn't realize

Like really like make some some big improvements on that, you know So it's often a lot of that before we've been so if there's just sending emails every week and stuff, you know,

Paul Povolni (16:54.208)
Yeah. So what do you start looking for when it comes to what they have in place? You mentioned you look at ads, you look at audience and things like that. Like what are some of the other things that you look at that instead of just saying, Hey, now we're to write an email for you. what, know, what, what are some of the things that you kind of dig deep in and chip away or add to what they're already doing that makes when that you start sending the emails and makes it way more effective, to reach their audience.

Marcus Camenzuli (17:07.265)
you

Marcus Camenzuli (17:20.961)
Well, look at the ads because I got to know like what they're responding to, right? Because often if you can logically keep with what they're responding to, like that's the response is there. They took an action, right? so I look at that. and I also just, I go back to where I started. So was like, if I want to know who I'm going to be getting on to, like when I was in sales, when I wanted to know who I'm going to be speaking to, I would just watch a lot of sales calls and I do the same thing now. And I look for who's on the phone and then you will, I will often see like I have a client is in the mental health space.

and they help people with like burnout and, anxiety, depression, but there are many people who suffer with that and they suffer with it in different ways. There's some people who suffer from anxiety, like very debilitating. And there's others who like, they have anxiety because they push themselves too much and like. They people please and all this, right? But they wanted to be more like with the, they want to actually help more of the people who push themselves because they're more action takers. They typically are more financially off as well. They're typically working much easier to sell to and build a business around, but they were having a lot of people who are just

completely down the dumps, like completely just, like they're anxious in a way that they can't even leave the house. But that, and it was like, why are we getting these? And, but then we look at the video ad scripts, it's like, that's who you're speaking to. You are literally saying like, like you're speaking right to that person. And then oftentimes they don't understand that. They just think like, yeah, well, we'll just cast like, they think they're casting a wide net when they're really like harpooning for the wrong fish, right? So those

Paul Povolni (18:40.759)
Wow.

Marcus Camenzuli (18:41.963)
And but you often only find that when you actually look on the call, but then the thing comes to, yeah, when you, when you look at the sales calls, you kind of kind of know what you're looking for too. Cause they were watching the calls and they were reviewing them. It's like, are we just not closing them properly? Like, or like what's, what's wrong, right? But like often the problem is way upstream. And then we would discover that as we, as we work together, you know,

Paul Povolni (19:00.376)
So you had mentioned the word avatar and for some people that might be a new phrase to them. Like you said, they were reaching an audience that they didn't think they were reaching or they thought they were throwing a wide net. How do you start refining and making sure it's reaching the right people, the right avatar?

Marcus Camenzuli (19:20.541)
It's based on, they often will have a similar outcome that they want, but they'll have a different problem in the way. Oftentimes they will have the same problem in the way, but a different perceived problem that's in the way. And so you can start to splice it based on that, and that often comes with how mentally sophisticated they are with what they know about your offer. So for example, I have a legal client and like,

There are some people who are doing the kind of like the legal services that we target. Some people who already doing it, they have very different problems who want to start doing the kind of legal services we teach to build a business around. Some people don't even feel it's possible. Some people know it's possible, but they're lacking something else like technically, right? Like from a technical standpoint. So it often comes with like, okay, do they have, like what's the outcome that they want? Which is typically an emotional feeling really. And then the second thing is

How much do know about the offer because then now they're like how much they know about what we do and it often ties back into what their perceived problem is or what their real problem is and then that change is just how you'll speak to them and whatever you're you are doing, you

Paul Povolni (20:31.294)
Right. Right. And so, you know, once you've kind of understood the, the problem that your audience is facing, the one that they feel, the one that, that, they, they wrestle with the one that gives them concern, the one that keeps them up at night. what's the process, you know, once you've gotten that, before you send that, that email, that first email out, are there any other things that, somebody needs to have in place?

for the email to be even more effective.

Marcus Camenzuli (21:04.333)
It's a good question. Well, would say that when I write daily emails, we're all on lots of email lists, getting lots of emails from everybody, right? They're all there. When I write emails, I look at even what front -end products do they have and what back -end products do they have? And so when I'm writing emails, yeah, we're sending out to the broadcast list, just the list that's hanging out there. But often I'll look at, I know this is kind of often what you would ask, but I would look at

Okay, so what's the say they have a front end product or a lead magnet, whatever to solve an initial problem. Well, what's the next problem that comes up once they solve that problem? Cause that typically leads into their back end problem. Cause right offers just like problems just lead to more offers and offers just lead to more problems. Right? So I'll look at that. And so that like with every, my whole thing is like, whenever just writing daily emails, like this is something we send out once, never send it again. I'm more looking like, okay, we'll write this now send it. And it's going to be relevant for sending to, but how can we also

write it in a way where it can get forever use. So I'll do that and the reason why I do that is because typically it's great if somebody does have different entry points. They already have an offer that they're proven to work. Because email's not gonna make an offer work. It's not gonna get the fire started. It's just gonna pour gas on that fire. So typically they should already be winning. Should already be profitable with.

front end advertising and then it's typically like, yeah, like you're in a good spot to like have email, like be a layer of profitability without increasing so much of your bottom line, you know?

Paul Povolni (22:40.29)
Talk a little bit more about the problem leading to a new

Marcus Camenzuli (22:45.207)
So like, it's often like, okay, like, if you have a, it could be like, I think a perfect example is like, okay, you get a workout program, but now, yeah, and that solves a problem, but now you maybe have a problem with motivation, right? Or you have a problem with accountability, and that's where a personal trainer, like higher ticket thing comes in, right? Like you solve a problem, I don't know what to do, you're not even gonna think about a trainer until you have, you know, say like the workout program

Nutrition and so often that's the best way to do it There's a lot of people and you people listening or the baby you've seen or yourself have seen like they try to like split offers up by like, We'll give them a little bit to fix the problem. They'll pay for that but to get the next word They got to pay again and pay again and pay again It's just this and it just it doesn't really you get people that are very resentful because like I got to keep paying just to Solve the thing I initially thought I was paying to solve for but it makes much more sense just to have it organically where like a problem gets

And then a new, but a new, like when problem gets solved, new problem comes, just comes up like right away. You know what I mean?

Paul Povolni (23:52.726)
Yeah. Yeah. I love that because yeah, it's, the idea that, I am, I am only going to, only going to solve a part of your problem. I've gotten your attention. I've, I've pulled you into what I'm doing. and I'm only going to solve a smidgen of what you actually need solved. And then, yeah, you've got to pay to get more. And then, you know, even then the problem's still not solved and then you've got to pay a little bit more and then the problem's still not solved.

And that's, that starts, you know, creating this issue of trust in you as a solution provider, because it's like, well, yeah, I keep going back to them, but it's never fixed. It's never solved. They keep, you know, trying to whet my appetite with more and more, but I'm never satisfied. And, but you know, what you were talking about is, yeah, you solve that problem. But, you know, sometimes when you solve that problem, then suddenly new problems arise. And if you know your industry, if you know what you're doing, if you

problems that you solve and you're very familiar with it, then you know what those one solution, what that opens up a door to suddenly, right? And so that that makes a difference is even finding out what those are. Is that what you help people with? Or is that something that you they usually have in place when you come on board to help them with some of their

Marcus Camenzuli (25:13.585)
I I've learned that from the best marketers in the world and outside of them. It's like when I share that, it's like they completely foreign concept, right? And so typically when I share that, it's then we rework things and typically it's a new concept that they don't accept the right way. It's like, yeah, we'll just keep doing what we're doing because it's too new to accept, right? But then they start to see over time. It's like, yeah, like there's a better way to do it. It's much more organic. And so, yeah.

Like it's typically something where like I'm looking for it, you know, and that's what I've really tried to lean into because there's a lot of people who will do your email marketing. They will. But there's not a lot of people who will think on that level for your business aside from the emails and really give a crap as much for that, you know, but it's something I can't pull myself back from, you know, like what am going to do? Ignore something I see that's like, you know, causing a leak. I can't do that. Right.

Paul Povolni (25:58.879)
Right, right, right.

Paul Povolni (26:08.876)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think just that simple thing, I think for somebody that's a head smack moment right there is, you know, really digging down into your business and looking at how you can give small wins to the people that you want to help and, a complete win. You know, they, they get the trophy, they get the medal, they've, they've won, they've accomplished something. They've succeeded in something that they've come to you initially for, and then looking at your business and saying, well, you know, now that I've solved that problem.

what other problems are now arriving or what are the needs? Maybe not a problem, maybe the initial thing is solving a problem, but then what other needs arise once they're in that place of feeling better, solving that initial need that they might have, whether it's around their health or their business or whatever it is, and then looking at, well, what opportunities maybe even does that open up for me to serve them even greater, even better,

Marcus Camenzuli (26:44.907)
Yeah. Yes.

Paul Povolni (27:07.274)
stronger to get them even to the next level that they might not have even realized that there is, or that they need solved. And so, you know, as a business owner, think that's a challenge is to look at things a little deeper and understand that the problem you solve might be just a small part of the services you can actually offer that actually helps people out. Right. And so, so I think that's a big revelation for somebody that had never thought about their business that way. They think.

I solve one problem, done, move on to solve the next same exact problem for somebody else. But there is this stacking of problems that sometimes happens with different industries. And so when you mentioned the law firm, what are some other areas where you've seen this problem stacking and serving people that has made a big difference in your marketing and reaching out to customers and making a difference

their lives.

Marcus Camenzuli (28:06.625)
I mean, I have a client that's also in the sales space, right? And that's one of my favorites, because it's my world. I'm speaking to one of me, right? And the audience will often feel like I have a sales problem. That's what

That's what they know, right? But what they're aware of subconsciously, even though they can't even say what their problem is oftentimes, but they subconsciously know logically is like, there's a chain in that, right? And often what I've seen, even in just with other say like sales centric offers is like, they'll like, this is sales training, right? And you're going to buy sales training. It's got thousands of dollars and it's very hard to bring them to like actually to get them to accept it. But then like for some of the offers that we'll do, it's like, we'll split it up so that like, okay,

the first thing they actually buy, they say it's a low ticket product, is like, you're gonna learn to ask better questions. Because they can often see, yeah, like, I can't even get towards getting somebody close to accepting a product or service if I don't have the questions to ask, I don't know how to ask them, right? Then when that's solved, it's like, okay, now you know how to ask better questions, but where do they go on your script?

Paul Povolni (29:10.316)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (29:16.417)
you know how to organize these properly. It's a very logical thing. And then that can be the next problem that they come to. And from there, it's like, okay, yeah, now I've organized this. I don't know how to handle objections or I don't know how to actually like stack the product. Like how do I actually like explain the offer I'm selling, right? And so like, now you can split it up. now like you have like these very different, you know, obviously problems and you can splice these up so that

the first thing that either people buy or they're in the sequence of a chain. But I find that's much better because usually there will be a lot of businesses that just loop everything. like, yeah, this is our high ticket offer and we're gonna help you with everything, right? But it's very hard to accept that. then they often don't know you, right? So then trying to get that is also very hard. But they get value from a low ticket product that they've gone to. It's like, what, $27? We all see those $27 products.

Paul Povolni (29:56.961)
Right. Right. Right.

Marcus Camenzuli (30:05.453)
very easy to accept, they actually get value from it, they're very likely to say even take like the next $100 product, very more likely they're gonna get a call if they got value from that and very more likely they're gonna wanna like, you know, get the big thing that you actually make profitability on in the backend, right? So, yeah.

Paul Povolni (30:18.442)
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause you've established this trust. You've established that you can solve the problem that they came in initially with, whether that is low ticket or, whatever that might be. And then they're like, okay, well what's next? What's more? I feel better if it's something to do with health or my business. I've seen change. I'm getting more calls. I'm getting more leads, you know, what's next? What else do you offer to help me? you know, with

and that's, you know, a, a growing in what you offer, but also in the problem solving is, know, I have solved this problem now. Do you help with this new problem that's arisen, you know, and because they trust you in what you've initially done, it's like, okay, now that I've got these leads, how do you help me in conversations? How do you help me in, you know, things like that. And so, so I absolutely love that. love that process. Go ahead.

Marcus Camenzuli (31:10.699)
Yeah. The thing too is the thing with that too, is like every business owner wants recurring revenue, right? Like that's the whole thing. That's why SaaS businesses are so valued at such a high level is because it never ends, right? Like it's just high recurring revenue and it's such an automated thing, but the thing is recurring revenue. when you only have recurring revenues when you have recurring problems, right?

And so if you can, like, and then that's where like this one recurring revenue will become possible. Cause there's so many times like I'll, I'll work with new offer originally, like, or I'm want to help with email and I'll see like, yeah, you have a high ticket offer. You're selling to it, but they're just, not going, like once they are done, you're spending so much to get this customer. And then you work, then they pay you like say five, $7 ,000 and then that's it. Right. But like they have new problems now. Right. But you're not thinking about those new problems.

And so like that can be, they can just open up so much more on the backend where like now like, you paid so much to get this customer and you made certain amount of profit on that. It doesn't have to end, right? It doesn't have to, right? And so a lot of people don't realize that, but you can create this kind of ecosystem regardless if you have a SaaS product or not. like your audience has recurring problems, they have other problems. Like if you just put out offers and get, and make them strategically.

Paul Povolni (32:14.124)
Right.

Marcus Camenzuli (32:28.405)
It just makes a whole difference in the back end, which is really where you make all your profit and it can make the biggest difference. Because every business owner is trying to obviously make more and improve their margins. And they often turn to like, how can we get more leads and improve the front end, right? But there's so much on the back end that they're missing, right?

Paul Povolni (32:41.774)
Right. Right. Right. Well, then I think that's, and that's where the email marketing makes a big difference is you, can put that stuff back in front of people and, you know, that when they realize that, okay, now that I've solved this problem, you know, I, I've realized that suddenly this, this world of additional needs have arisen. when, you know, but you know, sending out an email is, so, so, you know, that's some of the backend understanding of,

scaling and stacking offers. But even before that, you know, there's probably things that, you know, you mentioned the avatar is getting clear on your avatar and your audience who you're trying to reach. What are some other things that, you know, when it comes to marketing, what sometimes people fail at is they get attention, but that attention doesn't have a proper path towards

getting them the right solution. What are some of the other things you look for? Because, you do the emails, you know, you're brilliant at that. you get the attention, but there's probably some things that you say, if you don't have this in place, like I can get people attention. And then once you had their attention, you're losing them because this thing is not right. You know, it's kind of like I've said to others, you know, it's, like you're, you're, you're in a, in a stadium.

and you scream, hey, look at me. And everybody looks at you and then you're like, no, okay. now that I've got your attention, I've, that's all, that's all I've got. You know, I just get, got your attention. So what are some of the things that you make sure are in place that when you help somebody get attention that, they're not losing that attention because they've failed in other areas.

Marcus Camenzuli (34:10.926)
Yeah.

Marcus Camenzuli (34:27.927)
Well, most, even just with we talked about email, like most email lists, what they do is like, it's the most common case is like, you know, people are opting in and they are going onto a list where they're receiving whatever the heck we're sending that week, right? If I'm talking about a story about my dog and how that relates to B2B sales or something, some wild angle that people try to pull out of their hat, right? Like usually that's what they're seeing, right? But that's often not what.

Like if they just opted in, they responded to something, whatever we're sending that week and what they're like, what's top of mind for them and their awareness, desire level around the problem pain, it's often not in synchronized, right? And so often that's where like email sequences really crush. And that's what a big focus of mine is. Cause like you set them up once that's such a key area where they're immediately responding. The iron is hot.

Like we keep turning it up when sequences are done right, you know? And then I say done right, because those have to be in place, but oftentimes an email sequence will be like, okay, somebody opts in and it's like, hey, get this thing. And then next day, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch. And it's like five, it's like, it says over and over and it's like, a much better way. Cause like some people will even just start dropping off and you can start, you can structure based on their behavior. They're not opening.

Paul Povolni (35:32.78)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus Camenzuli (35:44.567)
like the first seven emails in that sequence, you can pop them into another one that's literally meant to get them to reply, right? Once they're replying and they're aware, put them back into something else to get them through that, right? But then even structuring it too so that you build the know, like, and trust in the right way, you build familiarity, because a lot of these personality driven brands too, they are very disconnected from their audience and they don't even realize, like, they could be a millionaire, but they're helping people get to their first, like, six figures. But they can be talking way out of line with that.

And so bringing them back down, because it's very hard to bring people up to their level, but it's very easy to bring yourself down and build a ton of relatability with that. And so there's a lot of opportunity with that too. And that's a big thing is like that that's where like, yeah, you talk about getting attention and like keeping that attention. Like that's where like a big focus will, you know, will go. And then the other thing too, is just making sure they're actually getting value from the thing that would they either bought or downloaded. And that's the thing that people always skip over. It's like, yeah, like let's just market to them. Right. But

your marketing should be useful and whatever they downloaded or bought is part of your marketing. It should be useful, they should get value from it and that will make the world of a difference. Even with the people, for myself, I get mentors all the time and I buy things from them initially and the ones I pay attention to and think about right now are people that have helped me and I've gotten value from. And so people make marketing very

Paul Povolni (37:04.03)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (37:06.653)
very convoluted, like, how do you do it? But it really comes down to these fundamental, basic things. Am I gaining? Am I gaining things that are gonna help me in the future? Do I feel better? Do I feel like I'm navigating my path more? It's these really basic things.

Paul Povolni (37:17.932)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (37:23.03)
Right. Now you had mentioned a few ways that you've gotten onto an email list. What are some of the most effective ways you've seen that you can grow that list? know, cause you know, obviously that you can buy lists and things like that. And those aren't of a whole lot of value. At least I don't think they are. What are some of the ways that if somebody's listening to this and they're like, okay, I'm seeing the value of, or, you know, solution stacking, I'm seeing the value of sending out emails.

Marcus Camenzuli (37:37.835)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:51.308)
What are some of the ways that you can actually grow that list that you've seen the most effective tools are?

Marcus Camenzuli (37:57.495)
There's like two paths and like neither are wrong, but they're gonna, you're gonna get two different outcomes. Like one is just like building a list, like with opt -ins and stuff, right? Free download, right? But there's a whole other world with like building the building a bit, like that's a list of subscribers and prospects, but there's another world of building a list of buyers, right? Like credit cards, like literally like they bought something, right? That's a very different list. You'll find like one subscriber is

Like a thousand subscribers is as valuable as like one buyer. Because people who buy, make decisions, right? And that's what's valuable. So I think that you should have a mix of both. then, then like free opt -ins can lead into like low ticket products. You could even easily do that. But I would say like everybody should have like a low ticket funnel product that they have because it just makes a little bit difference

Like, yeah, you can funnel people into that. It's a very easy way for them to like get into your world and get value from you. But you're, you're, you're, you're, not built. You're not like building a list of like tire kickers and freeloaders. Like you are getting people who are like literally making buying decisions and they have new problems coming up. Right. You know, so I'll dive into that too. Like when I work with a client, like that might be something too, that we do as a project. And typically we make a lot of progress just by like monetizing their existing list of like subscribers. But then I always say like, yeah, like we should, we should look into like a low ticket.

funnel product here because it's a whole other avenue that you're leaving off the table here.

Paul Povolni (39:29.11)
Yeah. So when it comes to a, you know, the, free opt -in and the small low ticket offer, I want to talk about both of those a little deeper as far as effectiveness and what kind of things for somebody that might be new to them. That might be just hearing this. what, what would be an opt -in, what would be an example of an effective opt -in? it just, Hey, subscribe to my newsletter or is there other things that are more effective when it comes

Marcus Camenzuli (39:54.539)
I would say, it could be, I would do a lot of people do like newsletter style, like, like a fluid, just say like, this is my newsletter. That's they typically get away with that once like they are, they've established themselves as almost like a kingpin, you know, like people know them, they want to hear from them. They're known for their expertise. Oftentimes, like a lot of people don't have that yet, right? They have it in some degree with people who know them, but a lot of people who don't, right? So, that's where like, like, you know, you can

do opt -ins based off, it's almost like it would be a low ticket product really, but you're giving it for free just to, it's just much easier to say yes to, right? Because you wouldn't need as much front end sales pages funnel copy to do that, it's free, right? They can just get it, so it's just another way for them to get it. But it's typically, it's almost like taking a low ticket product, making it free. And that's often something we do too. I see somebody has a great lead magnet that they're giving away for free, like, we could turn this into a low ticket funnel.

Right, people are getting, they're getting results from this. Like we could make something happen with this too, you know?

Paul Povolni (40:59.362)
Now, were you talking like a free download of like a PDF or a like, what, what is this low ticket freebie? that works best.

Marcus Camenzuli (41:03.703)
Could be a course.

Marcus Camenzuli (41:09.527)
Could be a PDF could be a book, right? It could be a book could be like a short course. it could even be just like even one video training, right? It could be, it could be even like a masterclass that somebody has done or a webinar that there was a pitch at the end. Sure. But they could have been something that people got a lot of value from just because they gave a lot of expertise. could package that until like, like a low, like a, like a free download. Right? So could be anything where like somebody gained something relevant to the problem that they're aware of. Right. And that's where

knowing your audience, what's really the problem, right? Because going back to the sales thing, right? We're gonna talk a lot about objections, but if the big thing that people respond to with us is question asking, then well, maybe we should make an opt -in based on that, right?

Paul Povolni (41:54.242)
Yeah. And so it, so it solves a problem. It's not just fluff. Like it solves a real problem. I'm guessing that's probably the most effective freebie, is that it's, you're not, you're not solving a part of a problem. You're, you're solving a real problem that then is part of that offer stack, right? Of, know, I've solved this problem, but that's now opened up a whole world of other things. And sometimes that solving that problem is,

Marcus Camenzuli (42:01.142)
It should. Yeah. It should be good.

Paul Povolni (42:23.818)
teaching them the why they need to solve the problem and making them aware of it. And then you sell them the how right? you know, you know, that's, that's where you come in and say, well, you can't do it yourself. I know you're aware of it now. And I've helped educate you around this problem that you're wrestling with. And, know, I offer the how and I, I can come alongside you and solve this better. Is that some of the most effective stuff you've seen, or is there things that have worked even better than

Marcus Camenzuli (42:53.997)
I would say what really works, I think what works really well, and it's not relevant for all offers, but like, mean, you if you can, you can give people like even like the, the Intel, right? The how to a lot of times, but they still need help implementing it, right? Like there's so many times and it's very funny cause like there'll be a lot of people who like their courses have been leaked and pirated.

Paul Povolni (43:09.527)
Ryan, Ryan.

Marcus Camenzuli (43:17.837)
their courses have been leaked and pirated, right? Their programs, like literally some guy in like India is selling them for 25 bucks, right? Like literally they are doing that, but then you will still still see, literally I would see this, people would still like, they would buy that right for 25 bucks. Now they got the info. They would still go buy the high ticket. They could need help implementing. And so then you start to see like how it starts to split up. like, yeah, I think like whatever, like I think information's really good cause like they can go through that. It's just a matter of getting them to go through

Paul Povolni (43:24.769)
Yeah,

Paul Povolni (43:37.048)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (43:48.177)
But it should be valuable, it shouldn't be fluff, it shouldn't just be like some words on a page just set in different ways and just like a bunch of fluff. Yeah, sure, you'll get there often, but you're not gonna keep their attention like you were saying before, you know?

Paul Povolni (43:59.086)
Right, right. It's not going to make any difference or any help. They'll read the whole thing and they're like, yeah, I haven't learned a thing from that.

Marcus Camenzuli (44:03.809)
No. They're just gonna mentally say no. Once people mentally say no, it's very hard to turn that around. That's why the more no's you can pre -handle turning to yeses, it's just all the better, right?

Paul Povolni (44:18.518)
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. And so they've, they've really said no, because they feel that, you haven't solved the problem or you, was all fluff or, talk a little bit about

Marcus Camenzuli (44:28.887)
Well, they even just like, they don't get like, okay, like they just, mean, you'll see ads on Facebook, right? You kind of get annoyed by them, right? It's just like, okay, yeah, but then you kind of say like, okay, I should check this out, right? And so you're already kind of like in like a neutral, almost negatives place. And then they go through it and then it's like a bunch of fluff. Like, are you increasing your authority or status in their head? Like you're not. And actually you've lowered it quite a bit and you've like completely destroyed.

trust, right? So like, it's now try to go to win that back, right? Like, you know, like now even if that person then one time maybe does get on, because people go through different journeys, right? Like, maybe they do end up on a sales team's calendar, right? For your offer, like they, it just changes the whole, just changes everything with how they're there, right? You know, so.

Paul Povolni (45:02.018)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (45:18.574)
Right, right. The relationship didn't start off on a good foot. So now you've got, you know, and, and, you know, I often said that, you know, people think that you measure the effectiveness of marketing from zero to 10, but it's actually from like negative 10 to positive 10, because, know, you're not starting at zero. You can actually start at negative and then you've got just got to catch up to get to zero, you know, uh, because you've done some stupid stuff like, you know, just giving them free fluff that didn't make any kind of a difference.

And so going through the process and so you get their attention via a website, right? It doesn't have to be a funnel or is it a funnel that you need to start them off with?

Marcus Camenzuli (45:58.911)
It can be, like often times they'll come from even like their social presence, if they have a YouTube presence, they'll come from that, but typically they're moving traffic and attention over from like say YouTube or Facebook or Instagram, they're moving it over, right? They're moving that attention, so now it's not like the attention just isn't lost, it can go anywhere in like the YouTube algorithm, now you're controlling it with email, where like really there is, the only algorithm really is just hitting the inbox, not hitting the promotion folder or spam, right? You know, so.

Paul Povolni (46:28.172)
Yeah. So you, so they've come to your page. you have some sort of an opt -in or you have some sort of a low ticket offer. you get their email address. now they're part of an email sequence that you start sending out. Is that the next step? and what, what happens next after you've got that email, after you've got their attention, is it then creating that sequence of emails or what, what happens, what happens in the process?

Marcus Camenzuli (46:57.153)
Well, like once we do that, I like to look at like, okay, this is what they're getting. What's like one more thing that directly relates to this that we could give them right away after we've given them something. So now they didn't just get what they asked for. They got what they, they asked for it for sure, but that's just like, that's just like, you just did what you said. That's not special, right? But now it's special. It's like, okay, now we can pay, give them something else. Right. And typically it's

First email, they get that and like they have to reply to get it. So that makes now you're getting people replying on autopilot. It's like just that's that just helps your deliverability. So like people make us think about deliverability. yeah. My open rates are low. Like you do this with your sequences. Like you're going to like have amazing deliverability, just not autopilot like all the time. You don't have to worry about it. Right. And then you're they're getting something. Right. So that could be like, if they downloaded a guide, it's very detailed, but then there's a video of you going over it. Right. It's like an, don't

However long, and then they have to reply to get that. Who would like, you would just see people going bonkers wanting that too, because now it's like, now they don't just know, now they just don't know, they have the how -to, but they also have somebody showing them how to do the how -to. That relieves so much perceived work, right? And we all wanna avoid that. It just makes it so much easier, ease, speed, less efforts, less brain power, less time spent. So people say yes to that stuff. And then,

Paul Povolni (48:06.572)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (48:18.113)
And then, so I get that, and then typically we structure the rest of the email sequence, but I like to look at that too, of how can we beat this stuff even more, right?

Paul Povolni (48:26.37)
Yeah, I love that. love that. so the, know, after they've already invested their attention in getting something of value that is helping them out, you know, maybe they've already looked at it. Maybe they've got a save to look at, but they've already felt like they've gotten value from you. And the first email they get from you is even more value that you're just offering for them. And, that, that value is attached to a behavior or an action they need to take. It's not just in an email you send them to something else.

And so, you know, when it comes to even with the, the email sequences that happen, is w is the goal to then send them to buy something after you've done that sequence, is it for them to, you know, go to a webpage is for them to like, what, are the behaviors that you expect from doing an email sequence that helps you as a business?

Marcus Camenzuli (49:24.363)
Well, know, like say like somebody is often fresh and fresh into your world. Like I like to focus like the first few on like, it's a lot like it's, kind of feels like it's, it kind of feels like a game with the product. Like it's a kind of accountability and like that's where I structure a lot of the language of like the copy is like.

don't let this collect dust in your inbox, like actually take action on it, right? And like, you know, and people, but they surprising how much people really liked that. And then from there, people, what the reason people like download something, do anything to get into your world is cause they have an unanswered question, right?

It's very funny if those questions were answered permanently and we would never buy anything else, right? Like, but we keep doing like, like the first thing you buy, like this probably not gonna be the last thing you buy from them or from the last, like you're probably gonna buy from somebody else too, right? There's a lot of these unanswered questions, right? And so I like to even like structure some of the emails that go out, like literally digging up that question and having them reply to engage with it, which you'll either find a lot of market research, you'll find a lot of sales opportunities that just come up organically or like just,

Paul Povolni (50:06.168)
Right.

Marcus Camenzuli (50:29.181)
Now they've they're not they're never the same after they reply anyways, like they've replied and engaged So like they're just a different subscriber now, too

But then I like to just go into like now like the after that goes and then I like to like structure content. like they are gaining something. It's not like the, yeah, go, go to the BSL page. We will direct traffic towards there for sure. It's a redirect traffic, but the content is like valuable content is like they leave with something like they, might not have the exact technical how to, but they know the what about the how like they know, like they, they are leaving with something. It feels complete, right? It doesn't feel fluffy or airy, right? Or like, you know, it's, it's like good. Right. And so I like.

Paul Povolni (51:01.249)
Yeah,

Marcus Camenzuli (51:06.575)
because then it just shines light on their dark reality that they're navigating. That's why they opted in in the first place. And then from there, like they typically will go through and it's really just to nurture. And I really, for the most time, there will be some pitching, but I don't really pitch a lot in sequences. I will here and there, but I like to base like, when pitching emails happen, I like to base it around helping when people get paid.

You know, and typically that's for some different markets. Like if we're targeting like people who are in a nine to five, they're going to get paid like mid of the month and around and the month around those ballparks. Well in between we're not going to be pitching.

We might do like soft CTAs like, go watch this training. That's very valuable. And there'll be a book of call button on there that you can decide to go wherever you want. But we're not going to be like hard, like going for the throat or anything. We're only going to do that when you're paid, when you're paid on those periods. And then like, after we give you value for like 10, 15 days in a row and you like are engaging with it, it's like very different how that's perceived. It's like, yeah, you've kind of earned me to shop around here. You've earned that, right? Like there's so much goodwill built up, right? So when you talk about

Paul Povolni (51:58.167)
Yeah,

Marcus Camenzuli (52:09.931)
Where does it lead? Well, it can lead a lot of places, but we're talking where you make most of the money, like high ticket offers. That's how I like to do it

Paul Povolni (52:17.846)
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense because you don't want to constantly be pitching because you'll quickly be, unsubscribed to, or, ignored and filtered and put into a folder and never looked at again. And so, so I like that, that, that it is more of a nurturing. you know, when it comes to people that you can help and people that you can't help, who, who, who's wrestles with this kind of a process.

and maybe they can succeed, but not at the level of maybe somebody else, but who wrestles with this process and who like excels with this process.

Marcus Camenzuli (52:51.319)
I mean like does well with it or just doesn't know it's possible or accepts it?

Paul Povolni (52:53.43)
Yeah, yeah. Who does well with it and who, who rest, who, who is it a little tougher for that it can still be effective, but it's not as easy as, as maybe somebody else doing this sequence.

Marcus Camenzuli (53:04.951)
Typically, the more established they are, the better they're gonna do with email because they're just gonna be known more, right? So people who have been around longer, like, and they've, like, they've made a name for themselves more.

You know, that's where they'll do really well. So it's like, it's typically people who have like, they built a list. They've been profitable on the front end. They already have a sales team, right? It's not people who are like scratch at square one. People who are like more earlier, they can do well, but they're just gonna have, there's just a lot more, well, first the awareness, right? Like if they're a lot earlier.

People aren't aware as, aren't as aware of them, not as aware of their offer. And actually they're probably a lot more skeptical because like, who are you? And if you have competitors, well, like, like, so like, what, do you, what do you have? Like, it's like, so what, like what's the point of you? Right? So it makes it very, it's, it's it's a much of a different, much of a different, much of a different game. And that's where like, it's more like, I'll just help them on a consulting basis, right? Like, or I'll look at like what they're already doing and fix it from there rather than like, Hey, hire me on like a high retainer to write you emails when like it's like.

that's not the biggest splash we can make here, right? You know, they would be at this service to you even if it would make me more than it would be, like just consulting with you, right? So, it's typically people who, you know, they've been further along and they've already been, people know them, they have a list, they have a market, they have a lot of attention, that's where it'll do well. They're getting lots of opt -ins, that's where it really works well too.

Because you can make money from lists that are static. You can. I have clients who we do that for. They have lists of seven, eight, nine, 10 ,000. Not a lot by any standards. Sure, more than others. And they aren't adding to it. But it's definitely not, it's not always, you can't always consistently, it's very different from somebody who's getting 2 ,000 new people onto their list every month. You're gonna have more people who are buying right away and automatically than people who they're not adding any people.

Marcus Camenzuli (55:05.197)
to your list, right? So with people who have like static lists too, it's just a different game you have to play and different expectations that have to be made with. It's great to stay in front of your audience, but like if you're not adding to your list too, that's another factor. Like you gotta be, you gotta be aware of that, of like how that's gonna affect, like it's a part of your marketing. You're not adding people to your audience. what you're gonna, you're gonna run it dry and then have to like.

And that's where new problems, right? If you're always solving the same problem, you're going to run dry pretty quickly, right? If you don't have new problems to talk about or solve, right? So it's all these things that matter. It's all these things.

Paul Povolni (55:31.008)
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and with some of the things that matter, you know, of course, language matters and you're a copywriter and, you know, email is words. What are some words that you avoid or counsel people to be careful about using and what are some words and the way you phrase things that you've seen creates really effective copy?

Marcus Camenzuli (56:00.589)
So the worst word is free. man, free is the worst word. There's so many other ways to say free, like complimentary, no charge on us, right? You can apply that, but free, right? Like whenever you know, even when there's something for sale that you might've been interested in, now when like free is in your mind, it's like, okay, well, I got this for free. How can I get whatever, whatever else you have from, how can I get it for like as minimal as possible? can that, and then just puts these people in this like such

car buying mentality? Like how can I just rinse you? How can I just like really like really crush your margins here? Right? It really does. So that's one. And like there's just words that imply work, right? Like, like machine. Like if, if it's like, say like, yeah, we'll build an appointment setting machine for your business. Well, like machine, okay. Well, do I have to maintain this machine? Do it? Does it, does this machine going to break? Right? So it implies like, implies like work, but

Paul Povolni (56:32.981)
Yeah, yeah,

Paul Povolni (56:49.91)
Right,

Marcus Camenzuli (56:52.277)
It depends on the markets that you sell to. But first, for example, most, most markets will be like very, they like things step by step and things, right? Like they want to be shown exactly how, cause that takes perceived worry out of their minds. Like, no, I'm going to know exactly what to do. Right? So like that kind of language can really, really work well. And then, but also like it has to be readable too. Like,

Oftentimes the challenge is like when you really like reading and writing like you will have like very like complicated words to explain things and then oftentimes like I Like I tell my clients all the time like this looks like it's written out of like a third fifth grade level But this took this was the hardest thing to write like you would see my first my first draft is a lot more complicated. It's like

Paul Povolni (57:31.338)
Right, right.

Marcus Camenzuli (57:35.863)
there's more abstractions. And so removing those abstractions is like one of biggest things, then that takes them out of consuming. And if they're not consuming, you're not getting anything, right? it's like, it's, like, that's where you kind of have to look at it. And that's where just the writing process, cause those things will not come up. Like you're writing something for the first time.

But once you give your brain air to breathe, then you start to see those things and it's like, yeah, you say this a lot more simple, you condense things, you say more with less, it hits harder, right? So lot of ways to spin that.

Paul Povolni (58:02.881)
Right,

Paul Povolni (58:08.384)
Yeah. Well, and I think, I think we, all get into that situation where we, we write something from a place of expertise and professionalism and understanding. And we think that it totally makes sense to somebody else that might not know about it. But depending on the kind of business you're in, you know, you've got to look at, know, am I writing in a way that for me, I understand it and I get it I'm using jargon and I'm using terms that I've super familiar with me and my,

professionalism and my expertise and the stuff that I know, but to a potential customer, they don't know those words yet. They don't know that language yet. And so I've got to look at ways of making it feel professional, but approachable. And I think that is, that is a good challenge for people to wrestle with that when it comes to copywriting,

Marcus Camenzuli (59:00.225)
And then the other side of it too, is like, you can say things, right, but then you can talk about like the benefits. Like I have a mental health client. It's like, they help people end their mind chatter, right? But their audience wants that, but it's not what they also really want. want, they don't want to just end it. Like, and actually that's what the problem we had with them is like, they were, they were just talking about like ending mind chatter and they were literally just talking, could just want to get out of pain. And they just.

would do enough work to get out of pain and then it was even in the program, they would stop doing the work to get the actual real results that they have to keep going for it, right? But then like even with just like, like the world runs on words. So like the more like you just beef up like what you're actually saying, the more your world will change is what big belief I have. like, no, with the people they want to speak to, they don't want to just, they want to actually work with, they don't want to just get out of mind chatter. They want to get out of mind chatter so that they can like be a better partner.

Be more present at work, be a better leader, and wake up every day with energy. So we would talk to those things more. That's the big thing we would talk to rather than just like, yeah, just get out of the mind chatter kind of thing.

Paul Povolni (59:57.622)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (01:00:01.834)
Right. Well, and I guess that's explaining, that's explaining the why, you know, like, yes, you want to get out of the mind chatter, but you know, why, why, why is that important to you? And understanding that and being able to communicate that I think makes the copy more effective. Right. And I think that, that aligns with even everybody else is, know, they want this problem solved and in their mind, they've been using language for this particular thing they want solved, but the coming out with the, well, why

Why is that important to you? Why does that matter? Why is that a frustration right now? Why is that a problem or a pain right now? And getting to that allows you to then grow what you can solve,

Marcus Camenzuli (01:00:44.247)
So it's all people are thinking about. When you think about why people buy,

I've heard this said with a mentor of mine, like long time ago, it's like when you buy it, when you buy a new car and I bought one recently, he told me like, did you feel good when you buy it? I was like, yeah, obviously you feel good when you like, when you continue to ride it. Like I was like, yeah, of course. It like, did it come with good feeling? Like, no, it didn't, it didn't come with like under the specifications, it will make you feel good. It didn't come with those feelings. Like you often get the, you gotta get the product or get it. And then like, it makes you, it almost gives you permission to like feel how, with the feelings that were already there.

Paul Povolni (01:01:09.565)
Right.

Marcus Camenzuli (01:01:18.251)
Right? And so like when you can speak to like emotional states, like that's where like you're really speaking to what people are like buying like even a physical thing for in the first place. It's how it makes them feel, right? Not just the thing opens up a whole new world, you know? So.

Paul Povolni (01:01:34.434)
Well, man, this has been an awesome conversation. I'd like to leave people with a big head smack that maybe I haven't asked you. Maybe I didn't bring up the question. But what is a big head smack that you want to leave people with when it comes to what you

Marcus Camenzuli (01:01:52.469)
I think we've all seen like kind of the diagram. There'll be like four guys and there'll be like three of them will be like pushing a cube up a hill, right? And it's like, they're like really pushing and then there'll be others. But there's one guy who like shaved all the edges, made it a sphere and he's pushing it no problem. I think like that's, I think that's like when

can look at not just your email marketing, but your ads, your offers, the products you sell, even to who you're selling to from a lot of these new lenses. You're kind of shaving off a little bit each time with every single thing that you do. And the more you do just over time, you will be kind of that guy who's pushing the spear and having the easiest time.

It's kind of like, you know, and often these things are invisible to it. So you don't even understand why it's working, but like it's those invisible things, which is great. Cause then people can't really copy you. Cause not a lot of people know this kind of stuff. so then your competitors can't copy you or they, or they might swipe it, but they don't know why it's working. like when something breaks, you don't know how to fix it. And so I think like the more, like, if it has been like eye opening, like the more you can just like have somebody doesn't have to be me. Like I might not even be available, but there are people, if you look in the right places, you can't do this kind of stuff.

It's just invaluable to put budget into people like this that can shave those edges off and just have everything run a lot more efficiently. It should be easy. If it's not easy, there's something that you gotta shave off something. That's why it's not easy. That's kinda like the way I view it.

Paul Povolni (01:03:25.024)
Right. That's really good. Well, thank you, Marcus, for being on today. really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's going to help some people in, rethinking what they're doing and making it little more effective in not only helping those that they want to help, that they're passionate about helping, that they're equipped to help, but also looking at how do I help them even further than maybe I've even thought about before. And instead of it just being a one point of entry.

and in and out very quickly that there's actually ways that you can wrestle with, how can I help them even more? And some of that comes from doing email sequences, some of that comes from just understanding your customers a little better and understanding what they're about and what matters to them. Appreciate you being on, Marcus.

Marcus Camenzuli (01:04:07.553)
Yeah, likewise, been great, Thank you.

Paul Povolni (01:04:09.656)
Thank you, man. And so if people want to be a part of your world, how do they get a hold of

Marcus Camenzuli (01:04:13.934)
Best ways through Facebook, honestly, this Marcus, Kim, and Julie, if you can spell that last name. yeah, you'll see a white dog everywhere. You'll see this thing hanging around everywhere. So like you'll see them and that's the best way. You'll get to know me a lot through there if you want to know like just like who am I? that's the, everything to find is right there.

Paul Povolni (01:04:36.33)
Awesome, and I will have a link to your website in the show notes as well. And I appreciate you being on, man.

Marcus Camenzuli (01:04:43.425)
Yeah, likewise, Paul. Thank you so much.