Jonathan Mast - Ai Prompt Master / Consultant

AI Mastery for Business: Unlock Time-Saving and Profit-Boosting Strategies

Many business leaders are overwhelmed by the rapid advancement of AI technology and struggle to effectively implement it in their organizations, potentially missing out on significant time-saving and profit-boosting opportunities.

Imagine confidently leveraging AI tools to streamline your business operations, create high-quality content effortlessly, and make data-driven decisions that propel your company ahead of the competition. Picture your team embracing AI as a powerful assistant, freeing up valuable time for creative and strategic tasks that drive innovation and growth.

In this episode, AI expert Jonathan Mast reveals his groundbreaking 'Perfect Prompting Framework' and shares practical strategies for seamlessly integrating AI into your business. Stay tuned to discover how you can harness the power of AI to save time, increase profits, and deliver unparalleled value to your customers – all while staying ahead in the rapidly evolving digital landscape.

5 Key Takeaways:

1. Embrace AI as a tool for amplifying skills and efficiency.
2. Implement the perfect prompting framework for better AI results.
3. Focus on creating valuable content to build topical authority.
4. Use AI to analyze and improve marketing strategies.
5. Practical applications of AI for time-saving and profit increase.

Link: Jonathan Mast

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Jonathan Mast (00:00.539)
How are you?

Paul Povolni (00:01.342)
I'm doing good, how are you doing man?

Jonathan Mast (00:04.079)
Not too bad. Hang on while I find the right window. I've lost you somewhere. There we go. Too many tabs open. There we

Paul Povolni (00:08.526)
Well, you might want to close some tabs just for so doesn't lock up.

Jonathan Mast (00:15.173)
Yeah, no, I've definitely used Riverside before. We'll try to get out of everything here. I'm one of those.

Paul Povolni (00:19.508)
Yeah, yeah, I need to figure out a shortcut to do

Jonathan Mast (00:23.705)
Yeah, I'm one of those guilty people that have way too many things open all the

Paul Povolni (00:29.538)
Yeah, I'm the same way. have, I have so many tabs of one day I'll look at this and then, and then I use Chrome and so it lets you put it into groups. And then I have 50 groups each with 50 tabs of things that I've, I've said, I'll look at, some point and I never

Jonathan Mast (00:35.746)
Exactly.

Jonathan Mast (00:46.421)
And we don't quite get there. I totally can relate. So. All right. Well, absolutely. Congratulations, man. You're I've seen your podcast everywhere. So whatever you're doing to promote it is working really well.

Paul Povolni (00:49.198)
Well man, thanks for doing

Paul Povolni (01:00.694)
I'm promoting it by a lot of effort by, by being busy. haven't, yeah, well, good, well, good. Yeah. I haven't started with any kind of paid advertising. I might do that. just to beat the algorithm and get it in front of people. Cause there's still people that, that I've known forever. And they're like, you're doing a podcast. What? And I'm like, yes, I've been doing it for three months.

Jonathan Mast (01:03.695)
There you go. It's working.

Jonathan Mast (01:19.771)
A mentor of mine once told me it's kind of like paying postage. You just have to look at ad spend like paying postage. He said if you want to get your postcard out, you've got to pay postage. He goes, got to do the same thing in the digital world. And I'm like, yeah, you know, that's an interesting way to look at

Paul Povolni (01:31.778)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The way I look at it is, you know, you've invited all these people to a zoom call and Facebook won't unmute you until you pay them and then they'll unmute you and let you talk to the audience that you've gathered. so, so yeah, it just sounds like you've been busy yourself.

Jonathan Mast (01:42.269)
huh, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Mast (01:52.763)
Very much so, yeah. We've been super blessed, been speaking a lot, doing tons of podcasts, tons of webinars. Our group that I've been running has been exploding. We just got over 150 ,000 people. We just broke 100 ,000 about two months ago. it's been, you know, finally the algorithm, like you said, has started taking off. yeah, so, and that's good. Just over a year.

Paul Povolni (02:05.463)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (02:13.794)
Yeah. How old is the group?

Wow, that's not bad at all, wow.

Jonathan Mast (02:20.539)
Yeah, so just over a year old. think will be 15 months at the end of this month. So little little bit over a

Paul Povolni (02:27.404)
Yeah, congratulations. so, so the way I start the podcast, I do both the audio and the video. so for the video version, I have you say, Hey, you'll listen to, Hey, I'm Jonathan Marston. You'll listen to the head smack podcast. And so just give me like three versions of that. And I'll use one of those for YouTube. And then, for the audio version, I just usually pull something out of what we've talked about and use that as an intro. So whenever you're ready, if you want to give me three versions of that, and then we'll jump into

Jonathan Mast (02:29.136)
Thank

Jonathan Mast (02:52.585)
All

Jonathan Mast (02:57.125)
Hey, I'm Jonathan Mast and you're listening to the Head Smacked Podcast. Hey, I'm Jonathan Mast and you're listening to the Head Smacked Podcast. I'm Jonathan Mast and you're listening to the Head Smacked Podcast.

Paul Povolni (03:11.022)
Nailed it, man. You're like a pro. That was awesome. That's right. They do say that. They're not always right, but they do say that. Yeah. Yeah. Fake it until you're exposed and then apologize. I guess. All right, man, let's jump in. I'm looking forward to this. this is going to be fun. And, yeah, this is, this is, this is something that I love talking about and love hearing about.

Jonathan Mast (03:14.927)
Fake it till you make it they say,

Jonathan Mast (03:20.441)
I was going to say it never worked well for me, but yeah.

Jonathan Mast (03:26.297)
Yeah, yeah, I'm not a politician, no thanks.

Paul Povolni (03:40.65)
We'll go ahead and jump in.

Jonathan Mast (03:40.859)
Sounds good.

Paul Povolni (03:46.328)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. name is Paul Povolni and I am excited to have another misfit with me. Today, I have Jonathan Mast with me. Jonathan is an AI coach and consultant helping businesses and organizations leverage AI to save time, increase profits and deliver more value. Jonathan, welcome.

Jonathan Mast (04:04.902)
Thank you for the invitation. I'm happy to be here and on the Headsmack podcast. This will be exciting.

Paul Povolni (04:09.132)
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. you know, I've, you got my attention. I think it might've been on Instagram or something and you shed. Yeah. You shared some really good tips. I've made it so easy to understand. And it was like how to cry create the perfect prompt. And I do want you to share it on here as well, but it just got my attention. like that he's just has so simplified it. I love it. I love, I love.

Jonathan Mast (04:17.403)
I think it was,

Paul Povolni (04:35.022)
you know, taking away the complexity that sometimes it feels like, you know, because early on it seemed like prompting was the magic, you know, prompting was the, you know, everybody was selling prompts by the, you know, hundreds, you know, here's a, you know, a thousand prompts for you to use. And so when I heard you share that, like, that is brilliant. I need to talk to Jonathan. So I appreciate you being on. And so I like to start the podcast off with just hearing a little bit about your origin story. You know, where,

Jonathan Mast (04:39.443)
absolutely.

Paul Povolni (05:04.728)
Where are you from and how did you get to where you're at and what were some of the head smacks along the

Jonathan Mast (05:10.073)
Well, I've had a lot of them because I did some stupid stuff over the years. So there's definitely been some major head smacks. One of my favorite lines, at least most memorable lines that my wife once told me is that, you know, if you don't start listening sooner or later, you get hit over the head with a two by four. And part of my origin story is that was about six months before I had a knock on the door from federal inspectors and found out that I was likely going to do some prison time for working for a company that had been.

Paul Povolni (05:12.)
Ha

Jonathan Mast (05:39.493)
too many rules and I had admittedly not looked to what was going on. so, you know, we've all made mistakes. I definitely learned a lot from mine. I grew up in a small Midwestern town here in the United States. Grew up with parents that struggled to build a business. They were entrepreneurial and they managed to pay the bills but were never wildly successful and decided that, you know,

Paul Povolni (05:43.563)
Yeah, wow.

Jonathan Mast (06:04.569)
That made a lot of sense. My father encouraged me as I was getting into college not to follow in his footsteps and to go get a job somewhere. And as I just kind of foreshadowed, that job ended up getting me three years in federal prison because I made some bad choices. I don't blame anybody but myself. you know, it's kind of like I know there's something going on in that room over there, but I'm not going to look. Yeah, that doesn't work when you when they get in trouble, that doesn't work. But I learned some really important lessons along the

Paul Povolni (06:26.135)
Right.

Jonathan Mast (06:33.217)
And one of those is I learned some great sales skills working for the company that got in trouble. But I also learned a lot about integrity after that, because as you can imagine, being a felon, now I have to have essentially perfect integrity, because if I don't, then it's all over. And that's actually that's been a real blessing in my life, because it's it's not that I want to make other choices, but it's always forced me to go even when it's hard.

Paul Povolni (06:51.669)
Right, right.

Jonathan Mast (07:00.219)
make that right choice and that's really benefited and grown. You know, that was 20 some years ago that I got in trouble and over the last 20 some years that's made a big difference in my life. I got into digital marketing because that's what I was interested in after sales. Actually, while I was in prison for three years, I got to connect and I get to say I got a master's degree in marketing because one of the other persons that was there with me in the prison camp we were at

Paul Povolni (07:10.475)
Right, right.

Jonathan Mast (07:27.363)
actually the head of marketing for Ohio State University. And on the third day I was there, he's like, if you want to learn marketing, he goes, I'll teach you. And so we spent two and a half years of literally one -on -one tutoring, taught me a ton about marketing and.

Paul Povolni (07:42.572)
How did he convince you that marketing was important when you're in prison?

Jonathan Mast (07:46.265)
You know, it's interesting, when I went in, probably like everybody else, the first thing you go is, no, it can't be happening to me. I really didn't do anything that bad. There's no way I can be going to prison. Yeah, that all may be true, but it didn't matter. I was still going to prison. And I remember going in, my wife and I had been married for two to three years, and one of the comments she made to me is, what are you gonna do? You got three to five years in prison. What are you gonna do to make yourself a better person? And I said, well,

Paul Povolni (07:54.636)
I'm a good person, yeah.

Jonathan Mast (08:15.459)
I've been in sales my whole life. love sales. I've succeeded. I was fortunate enough that virtually every company I'd worked for, I'd be their top salesman. I would have never wanted to have worked for myself because, or had myself as a sales rep because I was young and arrogant, but I was good at what I did. And I said, you know, everybody's told me my whole life that marketing and sales don't go together. And to me, they should be kissing cousins because they really help each

And so I said, when I go in, I've got three to five years, I'm gonna do everything I can to learn marketing. I talked to all my friends, family, people that I had hardly met, and I'm like, hey, they'd all say, what can we do? Well, send me some marketing books. Send me some books. I wanna read, you know, tens of thousands of pages on marketing. And it was truly a god thing, because three days, again, after I'm there, I got to meet Roger, who was there as well, and...

Paul Povolni (08:56.13)
Wow, wow.

Jonathan Mast (09:08.045)
He just said, heard a rumor that you wanted to learn marketing while you were here. And I said, yes, I do. And he's like, well, if you want to learn it, I'll teach it to you. And he did. So it turned out, you know, I don't want to repeat that part of my life, but it was a good part of it. It taught me a lot of things. And then when I got out, I really decided, you know, I want to instill some of those same things. I've always been interested in the digital side of things.

Paul Povolni (09:16.16)
Wow, wow.

Jonathan Mast (09:34.587)
I got started working in digital marketing websites, marketing, all that type of stuff. And then actually in 2010, I founded my own agency and we grew that up to seven figures. Decided that was a whole lot of work doing projects. So we rebuilt the agency in the next 18 months doing what we call monthly recurring marketing work. It worked out super well. And then last year, I decided that with AI and everything else,

I really wanted to step away and do something again. That entrepreneurial bug kind of kicked in and it's like, all right, we've built a company, we've done well, it's time to step away. So I did and I founded my current firm called Whitebeard Strategies last summer. And we focus, as you mentioned, on AI coaching and consulting. And it's really centered around my belief that AI is an amazing tool, but that there's two camps of people out there. There's the people that are embracing

Paul Povolni (10:08.266)
Right, right.

Jonathan Mast (10:29.923)
And there's what often seems like the larger camp, the people that are saying, no, my God, the sky is falling. The sky is falling. Don't go there. It's going to be problematic. I don't buy it. I believe it's an amazing tool. I not only do I want to teach businesses and organizations how to use it, but I really have a passion to teach team members and employees how AI can help them improve their position in life as well, because it really is an amazing tool. And I've been really fortunate to be in a situation where

Paul Povolni (10:36.118)
Right. Right.

Jonathan Mast (10:58.521)
Not only can I consult with companies, but I often can consult with their teams as well. And it's so fun to watch that light bulb come on in their eyes when they realize that, okay, AI is not gonna take my job if I embrace it. In fact, it could help me advance my career. And that's been just really rewarding for me.

Paul Povolni (11:16.136)
Wow. so AI, so you, you sold the company, you sold the agency or you're still a part of it or what happened there?

Jonathan Mast (11:23.835)
Good question, yeah, I actually, so I started the company in 2010. I realized in about 2012 that I wasn't gonna be able to do it on my own. My visionary marketing ADD style just wasn't conducive to building a large company. And my wife at the time, we had a younger son and said, well, she was a operations excellent, or operation guru. And she said, I really wanna spend more time with our son. And I'm

come work for me and she's like, I'll do that but on one condition. And I'm like, sure, anything. And she's like, one of us has got to be in control. And I'm like, that's no problem. I'm really comfortable being in control. And she goes, no, no, no, I don't think you understand. She goes, I'm going to be in control and if I'm going to work for you, you're going to sell me the company because then you can never pull that rank on me. I'm happy to say 20 years later or almost 15 years later, we're still happily married. Things went well. But she took over the operation of the company in 2013 or 14.

Paul Povolni (12:13.506)
Yeah,

Jonathan Mast (12:18.907)
and let me focus on sales and marketing. yeah, she literally just announced today, the sale happened on Sunday. She actually just sold the agency effective on Sunday and did her first exit. So pretty exciting times here around the household.

Paul Povolni (12:31.168)
Wow. Wow. That's awesome. And so that was quite a big risk to launch out into AI. What, what was it about AI that made you think that this wasn't just a

Jonathan Mast (12:44.815)
Well, I started using it, I've been using forms of it for a number of years and when I saw that Shanty PT had released basically an interface that made it accessible to anyone and I started using it and seeing how it could really amplify skill and experience. In other words, I'm not a heart surgeon, AI is never gonna make me a good heart surgeon, but I'm a great marketer, I'm a good salesperson and AI allowed me to amplify those skills and those experiences that I had.

so that I could deliver more value to my clients. I could do so in less time and ultimately make more money in the process because of the time savings. And I really just, again, I've been around the block a couple times. That's why I've got all this white hair. I want to help people embrace it because I heard a whole lot of the negativity at first about, you my gosh, be careful. This is going to steal everybody's job. I still hear it every day. People, you know, get mad at me and go, it's going to steal all our jobs.

Well, you know, at one point in time, they had buggy whip factories, and that's because people used horse and buggies. And when the internal combustion engine came out, those buggy whip factories, they still kept going for a while. But at some point, yeah, if they didn't learn a new skill, those people lost their jobs. And I don't necessarily look at the internal combustion engine and the automobile as evil because that happened. think it's just another stage in our human evolution. And I really see AI being the same thing.

Will people have to learn new skills? Absolutely. But from my mind, I can't imagine. Why wouldn't you want to if it allows you to perform better and to deliver more value? What a great place to be.

Paul Povolni (14:25.058)
Yeah. And I think, I think there's probably a third camp of people. I think there's the people that are like all in gung ho. Like they're, they're, they're fixed in on it. They're, they're like, this is the best thing that to have ever happened. And then there are others that are freaking out. They're fearful of it. They're like, my goodness, it's going to take over the world. You know, Terminator, you know, whatever, you know, it's, I think there's the other people that are willfully ignoring it or, or minimizing its true

And, I think, I think those are probably the ones that are going to be most surprised because it's, it's, it's, and I've shared this with somebody else. It's kind of like the first iPhone that came out. Like it was used mostly, Hey, it's better than a Palm pilot. It's better than a, you know, a, a trio or whatever, or a blueberry and a blue, you know, it's, it's blackberry, blackberry. It's been a while and I was a trio guy.

Jonathan Mast (15:05.048)
Mm, yeah.

Jonathan Mast (15:13.785)
Yes, blackberries, yeah. That's all right, I knew what you meant.

Paul Povolni (15:20.878)
Um, and so, you know, the, the first phone just, did not know it's full potential that we did not know that it was going to be so integrated with everything we do in our life. Now, um, it, it had a couple of apps for games. Uh, we had a better calendar. had better. Texting we, you know, we had, you know, the camera was terrible, but then we, you know, still used it. And, but we had no idea the full potential of it. And now we're, you know, 10 years plus removed from

the launch of it and we're like, yeah, we did not see this coming. And I think AI is the same way. You know, I think people that ignore it or willfully say, yeah, I don't care. It's gonna be so integrated into their lives at some point that they're gonna be blown away. And so for the people that are fearful of it, what part is legit and what part is

Jonathan Mast (16:17.081)
Well, like any other new technology that come out, you've got plenty of salespeople that are claiming that it's going to do all of these amazing things. And the reality is if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Not guaranteed because AI does do some really impressive things. But if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. My favorite at the moment are the people that are going around trying to sell these automated sales and prospecting bots that are telling business owners.

You're never going to have to talk to a client again until they've paid you money and they've already become a client because AI is going to take care of everything upfront. It's not. Now, we may get there at some point. That's certainly plausible, but we're certainly not there today. In fact, I was just down in Mexico last week speaking at a conference and that question came up about, Jonathan, what do you think about all these AI bots for sales and prospecting? I love them. But I asked the group a question and I said, so how many of you, it was all business owners,

How many of you would let ChatGPT write 30 social media posts for you, never proofread them, never check them and post them to your social media? Not one hand went up. And I said, but you all are interested in allowing an AI bot, which is essentially an AI tool from ChatGPT or something like that, to talk to your prospects, who you're trying to build trust with, who could come up with any possible question in the world.

and you're ready to trust them to replace your sales team. And most everybody is like, I never looked at it that way. Now, again, there are some good solutions. And I think if as a business owner, you're at a point where you're comfortable taking a moderate risk and going, okay, I'm willing to let the bots help me in certain areas and to help with certain onboarding tools and possibly some vetting of some prospects so that your team can then talk to those that are truly qualified.

Paul Povolni (17:43.054)
Wow.

Jonathan Mast (18:08.111)
I think AI is there today, I can do that. But to walk you through that entire process, I don't think we're there yet and I know that I've got plenty of peers in the industry that are telling me to shut up and screaming at their computers now. But that's just the reality of where I think that we're at and with that. So I do think there's some people that are over -hyping it. But I also think that, again, if we look at it, and my goal has always been to focus on practical things that business people, team members, employees can

Paul Povolni (18:20.728)
Ha ha

Jonathan Mast (18:37.797)
today and take it with. I'm thrilled to say a lot of the feedback we get is while you're the first AI guy I've talked to who actually gave me things that I could actually implement right now. We saw that last week, people were pulling out their phones and putting in prompts as I was sharing, as you mentioned, my prompt framework. And they were doing that like, wow, that works. And that was easy. And I think we tend to over complicate AI because we think we, for some reason, innately, we almost think we need to when in reality,

Paul Povolni (18:47.734)
Right,

Paul Povolni (18:56.364)
Right. Yeah.

Jonathan Mast (19:07.577)
we'd be better off if we had a conversation like you and I are having, If I talk to Chad GPT or Claude or Gemini, much like we're talking now, I'll get better responses than if I try to be so formulaic and so precise in what I do.

Paul Povolni (19:22.55)
Right. It's almost like, you know, we think it's magical or something out there that we feel we've got to, you know, like some people have that feeling about God, you know, the only way you can talk to God is if you use King James English, like, you know, God, if that woulds and coulds and shoulds, you know, and, you know, and, and we, know, and so I think a lot of people might even feel that way about, you know, AI is they've got to have these. Proper words. And maybe it was initially, maybe initially it was a little.

Jonathan Mast (19:34.149)
Yeah,

Yeah

Paul Povolni (19:50.498)
different than even it is now. think it's evolving and learning and getting better. But I think you're absolutely right in that it is a lot easier to do the prompts now than it has been, and it's only going to get easier, and we don't have to complicate it. And it is going to augment our lives, as you were sharing earlier with the whip. I think with every new technology, there's always somebody that

Jonathan Mast (19:54.21)
quickly.

Paul Povolni (20:17.452)
going to have to transition. They're to have to learn new skills or they're out of a job. And that's just like progress, you know, for thousands of years, right? You know, and so, so there's, there's people that, you know, did the printing presses and they created, you know, they lined up the blocks of text and, know, and when that became simpler, then suddenly they had to learn a new job and, and, and evolve. And then of course, computer publishing came out and then all those people no longer have a job. And so

Jonathan Mast (20:23.843)
Right, exactly, it's progress, I love that, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (20:45.358)
I think every new technology has people, has casualties. If they don't evolve and learn, they kind of become irrelevant and bespoke and custom for whatever. And so, I don't think it's a fear we should have of it. I think we should look at it as an augmentation, right? Yeah. And so when it comes to the prompt, and I do want to get into the prompt framework, how has your understanding

Jonathan Mast (21:03.895)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Paul Povolni (21:15.182)
AI evolved. mean, it's only been, it seems like it's been forever, but it also seems like it's just happened, but it's only been, you know, what 18 months, I guess. Um, yeah. So what, how was your thinking of it evolved from your first, what's this AI thing to where you are

Jonathan Mast (21:19.567)
Yeah, it really has.

Yeah, almost exactly,

Jonathan Mast (21:33.691)
I think the biggest difference is that I now look at it as an assistant. It's someone that is there to help me. It's not somebody there to replace what I'm doing. you if I need to write an email to a client and one of those emails that, you know, we need to say something, but we don't know how to say it properly. We're all going to write that email. Some of us are going to lay over it. Some of us are going to spend more time thinking about it. With AI, I'm still going to write that email. I'm still going to tell it what I want it to say.

but I'm going to let it then pick the right words to do that. And much in that case, it's like if I had a professional editor that was sitting next to me at my desk who I said, all right, you I want to write an email to Paul that sends the following, but I don't know the right words. And they being a wordsmith would grab that and go, great. Now that I don't say and they'll make it sound perfect. That's AI to me. It's an assistant that amplifies what I already know or have experienced.

Paul Povolni (22:13.237)
Brian.

Jonathan Mast (22:30.165)
And when I started, really didn't look at it that way. I looked at it more as just a blunt tool that I could use to do specific things. And now I really see it as something again that helps me again save time and amplify that skill and experience so that you and I even with similar backgrounds would end up using the tool in different ways and it would likely benefit our lives in different ways just because we're different people in that process.

Paul Povolni (22:56.79)
Right. Right. And I think, I think that is where the strength is right now. And you shared about the automated phone system and cell system. You know, I think right now we're at a place where it's augmenting things that we're doing. it's amplifying them, you know, it's not at a point fully. mean, in some cases it is where it can totally replace you having to do a whole lot, right? Are you feeling that way or are you feeling that, you know, where, where further along then?

them who believe, or we're not as far as we think we

Jonathan Mast (23:27.845)
I think there's a lot more opportunity for automating things than what a lot of people think about, but I think it's not all being done just through AI. So, you I see a lot of people that are like, you know, I want AI to do A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and I want it to all happen automatically. When today we could do A, C, F, and G, but in between there, we're going to need to use a tool like Zapier or Make or something else that's going to connect it to. And at the end of the day, from

technology perspective, what do I care? As long as I get the result, I don't care. I think a lot of people are though are expecting that AI is going to do it all. And down the road, there may be more integrations built for that. There probably will. But today, I actually think we're further along in the ability to automate. But I think we've got the wrong mindset about how we're going to automate it. Because most people are only looking at one tool instead of using a suite of tools that will actually accomplish their

Paul Povolni (24:24.992)
Right. And so when it comes to those tools, know, there is a lot and everybody's coming out with their own AI, you know, on my phone, I've got AIs that I never use that somebody mentioned some point somewhere, you know, I've got the plexity and I've got like all these different things. And I always end up with going back to GPT and Claude from, so before we get into your framework, what's your breakdown or understanding of

Jonathan Mast (24:34.969)
Me too, yeah, absolutely,

Paul Povolni (24:52.492)
the strengths and weaknesses of the different platforms. And so if somebody's listening to this and they're like, yes, I'm ready to jump in into AI, which one should they jump into for

Jonathan Mast (25:02.971)
Well, let me irritate every multi -level AI marketing or salesperson out there. You don't need their tools. Not that they're necessarily bad, but I really believe there's five tools that as a business owner we should look at and probably a few less if you're not in business. The first is ChatGPT. It's amazing. It does a lot of stuff. It is not my favorite tool. It's my second favorite tool, believe it or not. Claude is my favorite. But if you're just getting started,

That's where I recommend everybody start with ChatGPT. And the reason is it's easy to use, it's very effective, and it has a tremendous number of capabilities. So I think it's the perfect place to start until you really identify what are you most interested in and where is AI going to help amplify that for you. Then we've got Claude by Anthropic. A lot of people have not heard of that. It's a major competitor to OpenAI's ChatGPT. And it is my current favorite model. I really do love Claude and I use it

all day long. think that the responses better reflect what I want out of that. And I do use it for a lot of data analysis. And I find the analysis tends to be more precise than it is through ChatGPT. Again, we're not talking 20 % with ChatGPT and 90 % for Claude. We're talking 85 % for ChatGPT and 90 % for Claude. They're still both very good models.

Paul Povolni (26:17.176)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (26:27.17)
Right, right,

Jonathan Mast (26:28.613)
Then we've got Google Gemini, and if you're a Google fan person, it's a great tool to use. I don't think it's quite as good as the others, but you can still do anything and everything you probably need to with Gemini and get it done well. So there's nothing wrong with that. I have a client that, you know, they're a nonprofit, large national nonprofit, and they get Gemini as a nonprofit for part of their G or Google Workspace subscription. And they said, should we invest

Paul Povolni (26:52.908)
Right,

Jonathan Mast (26:55.451)
buying ChatGPT for our almost 800 employees. And I said, no, I don't think you should. You may have a dozen or so employees that need that, but let's train your staff on Gemini because Gemini is fine. will do what certainly in the old 80 -20 rule, what 80 % of the people need, it will handle. Then we've got two other tools. You mentioned one of them, and I'm a huge fan of a tool called Perplexity. Perplexity is really an AI -based search engine.

Paul Povolni (27:00.877)
Yeah,

Paul Povolni (27:12.983)
Right,

Jonathan Mast (27:23.035)
And the best way to describe it to the listeners is if you do a Google search, we're all familiar, we get 10 websites to go visit, and then we've got to do more research. With Perplexity, you still get the websites to go visit, but it actually then analyzes the results and the information on those websites to give you an answer to your question. So if I'm deciding I want to make lasagna for dinner tonight, if I go to Google, I'm going to get 10 different sites, probably a couple of videos and some really nice looking pictures. I'm to get that same basic thing with Perplexity.

but I'm also going to get a recipe that it sends me. And so it saves me time and energy. Not needed, but I do find it has replaced Google as my search engine because I do like the results and I like the way it works really well. And then the other is graphics. A lot of people love getting into the graphics side of it and AI image creation is indeed a lot of fun. There's a tremendous number of tools out

Paul Povolni (27:55.105)
Wow. Wow.

Jonathan Mast (28:17.563)
If you're using Chant GPT, you can do it right within Chant GPT. In fact, you can do it within Gemini as well. My favorite, keep in mind, I'm a digital marketer and I used to be a photographer. So I really like a tool called Mid Journey. The downside to Mid Journey is it is a paid only tool. So you've got to pay about $10 a month minimum or you don't even get to try it. That's just the way it works. But I find

Paul Povolni (28:40.876)
Yeah. And it's still through Discord, right?

Jonathan Mast (28:44.301)
It's still through Discord. They have released a web version now, but you have to create like thousand images before you get access. it's really someday it'll make a very interesting story in business school because they're going to talk about how Mid Journey, which I'm convinced will continue to be a very popular choice, made it virtually impossible to use for new users that weren't experienced, but still somehow because of the quality of their product managed to grow because their onboarding experience is miserable.

Paul Povolni (29:09.1)
Right, right. my goodness, yeah.

Jonathan Mast (29:12.827)
just figuring out how to do it at first. Now that I know it's easy, but figuring out when I didn't know how to do it, I probably spent two hours on YouTube videos trying to figure out what is this Discord thing and how do I do I'd never use Discord at the time, admittedly. My 15 -year -old had and he helped me, but you know, it's now that I use it, super easy, not a problem, you know, but yeah. So those are the five tools that I recommend people start

Paul Povolni (29:17.025)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (29:22.476)
Hahaha

Yeah, it's UI, UX is terrible.

Jonathan Mast (29:38.349)
And that's hard for a of business owners and the rest of us because we get sidetracked by these bright shiny objects and every person out there selling an AI tool tells you why their AI tool is better. And sometimes maybe they're right, but I have yet to find one that is. And I'll tell you even for me in what I do, I rarely use any tools other than those five we just mentioned.

Paul Povolni (30:01.354)
Right. What about meta? How, what do you think of it in its current state?

Jonathan Mast (30:04.143)
They're coming along. They're coming along. It's a pretty good engine. We do use it occasionally. It's not made it into my everyday usage yet, primarily just because I don't love the interface. It just seems a little cutesy to me, which I know is not necessarily being reasonable, but it's not appealing to me. Where I have used it quite a bit is we do use a tool in our agency. We do some AI assisted content marketing.

through that tool, I don't actually need to look at Meta or look at ChatGPT. It's actually using the API of all of that. And it does a really nice job of creating content at that point. So I think it's a very viable contender. I think it will do well. And I think the biggest thing there is just having people realize that it exists and how to get to it because Meta has, they've tried to fit it in with Facebook in such a way that candidly, I at least find it confusing. Maybe it's because I'm an old man, I don't know.

Paul Povolni (31:00.492)
Yeah. Yeah. I think most people do that. I don't understand why, why use Meta AI in Facebook. It hasn't been made clear as to how does this make my life better? And I think that's a failure on Meta's part on Facebook's part is they haven't made it clear. Like, why do I need this tool? Like in Facebook, you know, of all things, like how, how is it, you know, how is it helping me? And so I think that's where

Jonathan Mast (31:01.391)
but I find it a little confusing.

Paul Povolni (31:28.288)
struggling to get traction is they just haven't made it clear of why, why the big why, why use this. And so when it comes to things like Claude, Claude does not pull from the internet, right? It feeds off of data that it has placed in there. Is that, is that the way it works?

Jonathan Mast (31:41.103)
That's right.

Jonathan Mast (31:47.065)
Yeah, so one of the major differences, and I do expect it will change, but right now, Chad GPT and Jem and I both have web access, as does Perplexity. You can go out and have it scan a website page, pull data from a website page, anything like that. And for the most part, there are some exceptions. It works really well. Claw does not have web capability. So if you want to put information in, you need to either grab a screenshot of that website or you need to use another tool to summarize it.

I have another tool that I use that actually will summarize page and then I will feed that information into Claude and that works well. It's kind of like the old days of video and the old days are today for the most part. Most AI tools can't analyze the video directly. They are actually reading the transcript of the video to determine what's happening. Now, OpenAI has said that's changing and in theory if they come through on their marketing promises that will prove to be the case.

But it's kind of the same way. It can use all the data, but it just can't go grab it directly. So that is one difference with Claude right

Paul Povolni (32:52.31)
Yeah, so what are you using to summarize a web page?

Jonathan Mast (32:55.067)
So I use it two different tools one is the most common I use one. It's a browser extension called harpa .ai And it just runs inside Firefox or Chrome or Safari or whatever you're in edge as well. I just learned that the other day So I use that and then the neat thing about that tool and the other one I use is Merlin by the way They're very similar, but they're two different tools is I can then go into a website like LinkedIn's a great example LinkedIn is

Google Gemini and it's blocked chat GPT. So I can't go scan your LinkedIn profile. And again, that may have changed in the last 48 hours, but the last time I tried, you still couldn't do that. If I go to LinkedIn though in my browser and Paul, I pull up your profile, I can now enable Harpa or the other and I can then based upon that have it summarize the information on that page and I'll get all that back. And it uses chat GPT to do

but it's almost like it's creating a tunnel to the page and so it's still able to gather that data.

Paul Povolni (33:57.43)
Wow. That's amazing. Something interesting you mentioned about perplexity and I saw my kids doing this. and like I said, I had perplexity on my phone and I'm sure I've downloaded it or attached it to stuff that I have, cause I'm just a sucker for, I'm an early adopter and I'm a sucker for apps and stuff. I've away from the very first iPhone I bought on day one. and so for perplexity, you mentioned it, it goes to websites, pull in this information. What I saw my kids doing is they were doing that with chat GBT.

Jonathan Mast (34:10.299)
Sure. I'm there with you.

Paul Povolni (34:27.002)
is, they were going in and instead of researching via Google, they were now researching the best whatever using AI. And I thought that was very fascinating. And for me, it seemed like that is the evolution of search because Google, I think has really messed up search as well. I mean, it's a, it's it's good, but it's messed it up because I think people are gaming

Jonathan Mast (34:49.527)
Absolutely.

Paul Povolni (34:54.05)
people, you know, like you mentioned, you look for a recipe and you'll find a ton of recipes, but they're cluttered with all these ads and, or it's somebody that's just link has a bunch of affiliate links. And you're like, I just want the best recipe for chili. And you get these, all this junk, you know, delivered to you. And you're like, I, this is just a mess. And so, so I think, I think that's where, Google, I think is going to have to evolve. And I'm sure it is. do you have any insights

search and your feelings towards what is happening with search is perplexity of the future.

Jonathan Mast (35:28.603)
I think as a tool, think Google is not going away anytime soon just because they have more money than anybody else on earth, I think at this point. So they've got a lot of staying power. They're coming out with a new search generative experience, which is going to be similar. One of Google's problems, I get it, it's understandable as a business, they need to make money. so money actually drives more of the search results than anything else. When we see the amount of screen real estate,

going to ads nowadays as opposed to what used to be there. And the fact that they no longer make it as clear which are ads and which are not. If you know, you know, but if you don't, it's really easy. And they made that change because people weren't clicking on ads. I think that, I think that yes, the concept of an AI engine analyzing search results and bringing back an answer, I absolutely think that's the future of search. I think from a business perspective, when we're looking at the changes there, and it's not exactly what you asked, but being a marketer, have

comment, instead of being focused on keywords moving forward, I think what we're going to see is a concept called topical authority, where the search engines are not so interested about whether or not you have the right keyword for best chili in Indianapolis, Indiana. They're going to be more concerned about, you write about chili and are you an expert on the topic of chili in general? And then if you happen to be based in Indianapolis, you win because you're going to get shown more.

Paul Povolni (36:25.196)
Yeah, no, I'm glad.

Jonathan Mast (36:53.965)
It's a subtle, but I think important difference in how businesses are going to have to look at it. And I think it's going to be largely driven by AI again, because AI now has capabilities to analyze not just a page, but all of these pages together, essentially in a cluster, and determine is this really credible? Is this organization, this website credible for that particular

Paul Povolni (37:15.586)
Yeah, I'm so glad you went there because that's kind of, that was the gist of the question because it does mean that simply gaming SEO, keyword stuffing, all of the tricks that people had done in the past are going to be irrelevant and people are really going to have to rethink their website and the kind of content they have on there because AI is radically changing that. so, and I'm glad, you know, with your marketing background, you, you,

sharing on that, what are some other things for a business that they need to reconsider when it comes to being found online with AI being what it is now and what it could potentially

Jonathan Mast (37:57.561)
I think the biggest thing is focusing on helpful content. In other words, you need to create content that provides value to your target audience. You can use AI, as you know, to pump out volumes and volumes of just content. But if that content isn't relevant and helpful to your audience, they're not going to spend any time on it. And if they don't spend any time interacting with it, then the search engines are going to see that and you're not going to be showing them that you're not really delivering value. As businesses, I think we need to change our paradigm slightly

and move from enticing people with the sizzle of our offer to actually giving them some of the steak as well. In other words, we need to start sharing our knowledge and our information and getting paid for implementation. So as a digital marketer, just as an example, that means I need to start explaining to people how to write great ad copy, how to write an engaging and viral social media post, and maybe even showing them how to do that with AI helping along that process.

And I think a lot of businesses are scared to do that because they're going, Jonathan, if I show people how to use AI to write a viral social media post, they're not going to need me anymore. If they know that they can use AI to write an email campaign, they don't need me anymore. My belief is different. My belief is that you in your business have your role in the things you want to do. And if you're not a marketer, chances are marketing is not one of them. It's kind of like my lawn. I'm perfectly capable of mowing my lawn. I'm perfectly capable of changing the oil in my car.

I pay an exorbitant amount of money so that I don't have to do either of those because I would rather spend the time that I would spend mowing my yard and changing the oil on my car, doing my job and making enough money to pay somebody to do something I don't have any desire to do. Just because I can do it and even know how to do it doesn't mean that I'm going to. And I think that's a paradigm shift that a lot of businesses need to start embracing because the good news is,

You are absolutely gonna share information with people that are gonna take that and they're gonna self -implement, they're gonna do it themselves. The key is those people were never gonna pay you to do it in the first place. So you're not losing anything as a business owner. But by creating that content, you're now creating credibility for yourself, going back to the topical authority we talked about with SEO. And now you're gonna have people come to you, candidly, Paul, just the way you and I met. I try to deliver value, one of the ways is through Instagram.

Paul Povolni (40:04.14)
Yeah, that's so good.

Jonathan Mast (40:20.227)
You saw one of my videos and thought, wow, I'd like to talk to Jonathan. We didn't get introduced by a mutual contact. I never reached out to cold call you and begged to be on your podcast. I'm happy to be here. Don't get me wrong. But we met because of that value that I was trying to deliver. And fortunately, it resonated with you and we reached out and connected. The great news is if it hadn't resonated with you, then I probably wouldn't have been a good guest on your podcast either. And therefore, I wouldn't have lost anything.

Paul Povolni (40:30.989)
Yeah,

Paul Povolni (40:48.822)
Right, right, exactly. Wow, that is so good. mean, somebody needs to just re -listen to that bit right there, because that was so much value, because I think we do feel that, can I really give away knowledge? Can I really give away ideas? Can I really give away this stuff? And the truth is, you're going to have to, because the world is changing, putting everything behind a paid gateway, a paid wall,

Jonathan Mast (40:55.471)
Thank

Paul Povolni (41:16.75)
hiding, keeping everything close to your chest. It's the that's not the future. It's not where we're at in 2024, when it comes to social media, where it comes to content, when it comes to sharing ideas. And so, you know, I think I think even with businesses, and when it comes to marketing, you're going to have to start putting some stuff on your website that is not simply just just advertising, right. And that's what you're saying is put some of that knowledge about your specialty and the problem you solve.

is start putting that in the form of blog posts and content on your website. And that is actually going to have more value in the evolving of search engines,

Jonathan Mast (41:55.867)
I think it will. think it's both going to appeal to the search engines, but it's also going to appeal to your ultimate customer. We have become so trained as a society that when an advertisement comes on, we're literally turning our brains off to that advertisement. therefore advertising, not saying it's irrelevant, but it has so much less value than it used to because we're tuning it off. And even, you know, a good example, I read a study on TV advertising talking about the cost of TV advertising.

as compared to other digital forms. And the study that recently came out that showed that people in particular under 50, so think about that for a minute, that's a lot of people, when an advertisement comes on, what do they do? They go grab their phone and they now go look at their phone. And when their show comes back on, the phone goes down. But when that ad comes on, we're so trained to know what's an ad and what's not, we subconsciously just ignore a lot of them.

Does it mean it doesn't work? No, ads still work, but in a different way than they used to. And I do believe that's just a fundamental change in the way we need to market and we need to demonstrate our expertise and credibility. It doesn't mean we can't get paid for it, but we need to demonstrate that by adding value to people's lives. And then when they need our services, they're going to call us, just like I call my long crew.

or anybody else because I don't want to do that. I don't bring my oil change to the local guy that does it in his front yard because I don't know if he's going to do it right. So I pay more money to take it to the business that shares the tips on car care and everything else. And I'm going, you guys understand cars. At the end of the day, the person underneath my car draining the oil, does that person know more than the guy in the front yard? I don't know.

But my belief because of the way the business is operating and sharing value is that if I can trust the business, then I can likely trust their team because they're going to follow through with that same level of quality and integrity and care across the board. And that means I pay more money to get my own change than I need to because I go to a franchise location that's well trained in my mind, could be wrong, as opposed to going to the guy that's going to change it in his front yard that might

Jonathan Mast (44:13.999)
do a better job, but I just don't know because he's literally a front lawn mechanic at that

Paul Povolni (44:20.694)
Right. Now with the sharing of ideas and the sharing of content and the sharing of knowledge and the sharing of what you do, you know, with, with AI pulling this data and feeding results in a page of content, how do you, shouldn't people be concerned that my knowledge, my information is anonymous in an AI, you know, suddenly it's fed from my knowledge. It's fed from my wisdom.

But it's not giving me any credit for it. It's just pulling this into a result. Is that a legitimate fear or do you see that things are changing or it's irrelevant?

Jonathan Mast (45:00.719)
I think it's a legitimate fear, but I think it's misguided if that's fair. Especially as a content creator. I create a lot of content and I see people borrow my content. I use that in air quotes, I suppose, regularly. But if you do a good job of it, you're going to be okay. Here's how I really look at that, Paul. If you and I have an idea today, the chances are that wasn't the first time anybody on earth thought of that idea. We likely were inspired by something we heard or we read or we saw.

that caused us to put some things together. And that's really the same manner that AI is creating things. So when I go to, for example, create an AI based image, is it using the images it's been trained on? Absolutely. Does that mean it's copyright infringing or stealing content from somebody else? No. I learned an interesting thing the other day and I have not gone through art school, so I didn't know this. But I learned that when you go to most high end premium, whatever respected art schools.

for the first year or two, they actually have you copy all of the masters in the discipline that you're interested. So if you're out and be a painter, you're literally going to take people like Van Gogh and others like that and Picasso, the goal is to recreate what they did. Why? Because in that process, you're going to learn skills that ultimately your personal experience and skill will then reflect a different style. So you're never, even if you love Picasso and learn Picasso,

You're never going to paint a Picasso because you're not Picasso. You're going to paint something that Paul would do. And it may have similar aspects, but it really it's not copying. And I just again, I look at it differently. Quick short story for people that just go, Jonathan, you're totally wrong. So I use for part of my brand a cartoon style image because I like them. My wife says I'm childish. She's probably right. But at 55, I can be childish.

And I use a cartoon style image for almost all of the work that I do. Recently, I had another AI coach that I know and like and actually collaborate with. He loved the idea, and so he started creating his own. They looked very similar to mine. And I admit, when I first saw it, I thought, man, you got guts. I mean, that's my thing. But I didn't say anything about it because it wasn't my thing. It's just something I do. I noticed about three weeks later, he stopped doing it. We actually were speaking at an event. And I asked him, I said, hey,

Jonathan Mast (47:28.303)
You know, I noticed you started using those images. What do you think? And he goes, well, I love the images, but he says they caused a problem. What do mean they caused a problem? He goes, every time I would put one of those on a social post or a blog post, they thought it was you. Because my brand is now known for that. If you know me and know my brand, that's something you're comfortable with and you equate with me. So even though somebody and I don't think he did it mysteriously, but somebody copied what I had done.

Paul Povolni (47:43.182)
Right.

Jonathan Mast (47:57.143)
It didn't end up working for them because it wasn't part of them. It actually benefited me in the process. And I think that, again, it's operating, do we operate out of fear as we kind of started talking about? Should we be fearful of AI or should we embrace it as a tool? I choose to be optimistic and to embrace it as a tool. And as a result, will somebody copy me? That happens all the time. My prompt framework that you've talked about, I have seen lots and lots of people copy it. That's okay because you know what?

I want millions of people to learn how to use it. And I don't really care how they get there. Sooner or later, a lot of them find their way back to me and go, so you're the guy that came up with that. At the end of the day, I think so. But, know, Paul, maybe somebody came up with aspects of it sooner. I'm sure I was inspired by others as well. So I'm not going to claim that, you know, that prompt framework, the four steps I use is totally exclusive to me because it's just common sense.

Paul Povolni (48:37.185)
Yeah,

Jonathan Mast (48:54.425)
I'm sure others are saying the same thing. I'm a business, so what I do, I branded it. I now call it the perfect prompting framework because now I'm the only one that can have the perfect prompting framework. You could have the same one and call it Paul's prompting framework and I can't do anything about it. But so I think that's where, I do think things are changing for business though based on

Paul Povolni (49:04.534)
Right, Yeah,

Paul Povolni (49:14.732)
Yeah. So you've brought it up and let's talk about it. Let's talk about the perfect prompting framework. that first got my attention. because, you know, prompting is the thing, the one thing that people like we shared have the fear of, you know, am I going to get good results? Am I going to go, you know, is it, is it so complicated? And just for the people that are prompt geniuses and prompt wizards and whatever titles they wanted to start coming up with when, when this first launched. So let's talk about it. What is the perfect prompting

Jonathan Mast (49:44.187)
Well, let me start with the premise. The premise is that if I know how to communicate with AI and ask the question in the right manner, I'm going to get a better response. And that's what this was all built off of. And so over the time, probably doing tens of thousands of prompts, I don't know how many I couldn't count that high. I know I've got over 10 ,000 in my history in Chetchi PT alone. So we've done a lot of prompts.

What I've learned from that, and there's been a lot of experimentation, is that there's four simple steps you can take to get the best possible response. The first is easy. You need to tell ChatGPT what type of expert or person or advisor it's supposed to act like. Because it has such a broad range of knowledge, I need to draw it into a particular topic quickly so that it knows where to focus. And we have to remember, much like humans, each chat or prompt only has so much energy behind it. They're called tokens with AI.

And if we waste those tokens or that energy because we're searching the broad universe, that we're going to get a lesser response. If we can narrow that in and go, okay, I want you to act like an expert copywriter to help me write a Google ad campaign. Now guess what? It knows not only what library to go to, but what book in the library to go to. And now I'm not wasting those tokens, that energy, so to speak, on trying to figure out how to get there. So I can shortcut

So that's step one. Step two is the part that most people I find miss with AI, and that's that they assume that it's a mind reader. They assume they don't need to give it any information. So the example I always use here, and step two, by the way, is give it background information, give it context. So, Paul, if you and I are collaborating together and I came to you and said, Paul, I need you to write me a Google ad campaign, and you said, OK, no problem. What's it about? And I go, I'm not going to tell you. And then you go, well,

Paul Povolni (51:35.149)
Ha

Jonathan Mast (51:35.845)
Who are we trying to target? I'm not gonna tell you. What are we trying to sell? I'm not gonna tell you. Chances are you probably wouldn't write an ad campaign that fit my needs because I didn't give you enough information. And that's really typical when we prompt AI with things, because we do things like write me a blog post. And it writes one, but it sucks because it wasn't on what we wanted. Or write me an ad campaign, but it sucks because it didn't have the right information. So we need to give it context.

And then step three is our question. It's what normally we would put in as our prompt. Write me, create a Google ad campaign for me. That's step three. It's just my question, my instruction, what I want it to do. So we're into three steps. We do have one more, but step one again, what type of expert? Step two, context, and step three, my question. All of this goes into one prompt. We're not doing three separate prompts. That all goes into one, but it can be relatively

Step four in my mind when I learned about it absolutely changed my world. And I don't know if somebody told me this or if I discovered it, but it is amazing. You need to understand that AI tools have been developed to make assumptions because they know that we as humans don't like to be asked too many questions. And if it acted like a three year old child and every time we asked it to do something, it said, why, why, why?

we'd stop using the tool because it would just annoy us. So the developers have taught it to fill in the blanks by making assumptions, and we all know what happens when we make assumptions. So step four is very simple. It's please ask me any clarifying questions you need to give me the best possible response. And people may be going, so what? No, here's why it matters, because you've just given permission. In fact, you've actually instructed the AI at that point.

Paul Povolni (53:01.546)
Right.

Paul Povolni (53:19.683)
Wow.

Jonathan Mast (53:28.047)
to ask you questions. If you're like me, sometimes I don't know all the information that maybe the model needs to give me the best possible answer, so I guess. And by adding that fourth step in, please ask me any clarifying questions you need to give me the best response. AI will now analyze your request. It'll analyze, okay, I'm supposed to act as a copywriter who specializes in creating Google Ads. I need to create a Google Ad campaign to sell Jonathan's AI mastermind course.

to entrepreneurs and he wants me to write a campaign with three different options. That's the first part of it. Now, as soon as I say, please ask me any clarifying questions, guess what? It's gonna ask me five to 10 clarifying questions that it needs in order to write the best possible Google ad campaign copy for me. I can't predict what those are because I'm not a Google ads expert. That's not my forte.

But AI knows what a good Google ad campaign includes. It knows what the best practices are. And it will then look and go, well, Jonathan answered three of the seven things we need to know. We need to ask him these other four questions. And then when I answer them, as you can imagine, I've provided the AI with more information. And the level of the quality of the response I get goes up exponentially.

Paul Povolni (54:45.15)
Wow. Wow. that hopefully people wrote down those notes, four simple things that, that change everything is first the persona. What, what, what persona do you want it to have? Second thing is context, right? third thing was the question. And then the fourth thing was clarity. Like ask me any, ask me any follow -up questions. That's the Paul Pavolny, perfect prompt framework.

Jonathan Mast (55:02.703)
Yes, that's it. Yeah.

Jonathan Mast (55:09.445)
There you go. So now we've got the 2P prompt framework from Paul and we've got the perfect one for me. And you know what? Either one will work because that process just provides the AI tool with the necessary information it needs. And again, Paul, it's no different if you and I are collaborating. If I didn't provide you with that same information, let's say you are a Google Ads expert and you're going to do that for me.

Paul Povolni (55:16.77)
hahahaha

Jonathan Mast (55:36.087)
I would expect that you'd come back with questions if I didn't give you that information and it wouldn't bother me in a business relationship if you did that. But yet we never think of doing that with AI and it truly changes everything.

Paul Povolni (55:48.8)
Right. And that's as simple as it gets with getting some pretty decent results. It's just simply following Jonathan's framework because it's not as complicated as some of us feel, but there's also ways to get a better prompt, right? Even if you use that, what are some of those ways to even get a better prompt? What are some of those frameworks that you've talked

Jonathan Mast (56:05.562)
absolutely.

Jonathan Mast (56:12.731)
Well, there's a number of things you can do that we can add into that, like what format do we want to provide it in? So maybe I'm asking for keyword research and I want it to put it in a table or that type of thing. I want it to create a graphic about something. I can do that. There's a lot of things I can add into that to make it better. Probably the single biggest advice I can give to make it better is remember it's about having a conversation. It's not about just asking one question. We call that single prompting.

That's again like me walking to your desk, Paul, and going, I need you to write me a Google ad, and turning around and walking away. And an hour later when you bring me that and I go, well, you idiot, that's not what I wanted. You're going, no, boss, you're the idiot because you didn't tell me what I needed to do. And what works well is if I came and said, hey, Paul, I need you to write a Google ad campaign for me. And you said, great, let me ask you a couple of questions. And I said, sure. And I stood there and we have a conversation.

And then during that, you remind me of something else because of one of your questions. So I add that into the conversation as well. And we have a five to 10 minute conversation about what my expectations are for creating that Google ad and what you need as a professional in order to be able to deliver on my expectations. The other example I can give is let's say we're texting, because I often compare prompting to texting, and I say, Paul, let's meet for lunch today.

I'm not just going to send you that text message and assume that you know the time, place, and location that I want to go have lunch. We're going to go back and forth. You might say, hey, I'm not available until for a late lunch. Can we do one o 'clock instead? And I might go, yeah, that'll work. And then you're like, I'm in the mood for pizza. And I go, I want sushi. And so we compromise and we go for burgers and fries. And we go back and forth with each other. And we have a conversation.

And ultimately, what does that mean? We're both going to meet at the same restaurant at roughly the same location and we're going to have lunch. But if we didn't have the conversation, if we just single texted and I said, Paul, see you for lunch. You might be going where, when? I don't know. And I don't want sushi today. So you need to have that conversation.

Paul Povolni (58:15.286)
Right, right, right.

So is that conversation happening in a single threaded conversation and it's learning? so each new question, you could continue feeding it data and it's learning in that single threaded conversation. Is that how you train it? You know, to, okay.

Jonathan Mast (58:34.181)
That's one way and yes, if you stay within a conversation inside of any of the AI tools, it's like staying within one text conversation. It has access to the information that you said previously. Now, for the technical people out there, yes, there is a point at which it forgets that just like as humans. If you texted me something two years ago, I may not remember it today, but that can happen. But for practical purposes, if we stay within that chat, it's going to remember

Paul Povolni (58:55.126)
Right, right.

Jonathan Mast (59:02.479)
The other thing that I'm a big proponent of the help improve prompts and this is more of an advanced concept, but I create what I call a number of prompt snippets. These are little bits of information that I use repeatedly in different prompts. An example of that would be I have gone through and I've had AI interview me in order to determine what my tone and my style is. I've uploaded blog posts that I've done, I've uploaded podcasts, transcripts of that.

I've uploaded lots of information to showcase to AI, this is who Jonathan is, this is how Jonathan speaks, here's his values. As a result of that, and it analyzed all that and we had a big interview, it came up with a, what I call a snippet, it's about 45 characters long, that is my tone and style. I save that in my clipboard and I have that available because I use that every single day when I'm creating content, whether it's an email that I'm writing you,

or an SOP, it reflects my tone and style. The neat thing is if I give that snippet back to AI and I say, what does this mean to you? I'm gonna get 10 or 20 pages of information based upon that because we worked in the reverse. We started with lots of data and we condensed it and I told it to condense it in a way that it would understand as much as possible about the expanded data. So I keep a number of those around that I use again.

Paul Povolni (01:00:12.95)
Wow.

Jonathan Mast (01:00:28.435)
as I'm prompting. There's different things like that, but the most common one is my tone and style. And again, that's a little bit more advanced, but it's very easy because whether I'm writing an email campaign, website copy, an SOP, an email to my mom, doesn't matter. If I want it to sound like me and not sound like AI, I can just paste that in there and it knows, okay, this is Jonathan's personality. This is his tone and style. This is what he enjoys. And it doesn't necessarily talk to my mom about

motorcycles one of my passions but if it understands that what that means to me as a person the freedom and the liberty and all that it then can reflect that in the way that it writes things and it sounds more like

Paul Povolni (01:00:59.648)
Right,

Paul Povolni (01:01:11.348)
Wow, that's amazing. Now that's before you start prompting or after you start prompting, or is that a fifth thing that you ask it? You ask me about the snippet or ask me for, for whatever.

Jonathan Mast (01:01:20.997)
I actually just, I've got it to a point now that I just throw that into the prompt when I'm doing it. So, and it really can go at the beginning or the end, it doesn't matter because it understands what that means. Now, chat GPT has a feature that Claude and Gemini do not called memory. And it will actually remember aspects of what you do over time. That's good and it's bad because some of what it remembers is good, but I'm a married man, some of it's like my wife and it remembers things that I wish she didn't remember too.

Paul Povolni (01:01:26.712)
Okay.

Paul Povolni (01:01:49.838)
And is that in every conversation it remembers it or is it just

Jonathan Mast (01:01:50.011)
And the difference is not every bit of every conversation and I couldn't tell you exactly how the algorithm works, but the good news is ChatGPT gives you the ability to go in and go, don't remember that. So honey, don't remember when I dumped the chili all over the floor. So when I make a mistake like that, it's almost like going to my wife and being able to remove that memory like she never knew about it. So that's the benefit. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Paul Povolni (01:02:07.15)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:02:14.698)
It's like men in black, you know, you forget, forget what you just saw here. Okay. That's very interesting because go

Jonathan Mast (01:02:19.727)
So that's one of the benefits of chat GPT.

Paul Povolni (01:02:24.076)
Yeah. Well, and there's also, you know, I know GPT allows it to upload a document as well that you can have. you mentioned upload, you know, popping in a snippet, but you could also upload a document because I've created one for my podcast is to create all my show notes and pull out the key points and all that. tried, actually, I even tried other services that do that for you and I liked my prompt better. So, and some of it was using some of your stuff.

Jonathan Mast (01:02:39.002)
Mm -hmm.

Jonathan Mast (01:02:47.843)
Yes. Yeah, well, and I appreciate mentioning that because that's often what a lot of the other AI software is. It's like they're going to take the developer's perspective on the best way to create podcast show notes and they're going to create an app that does that. They're ultimately probably using ChatGPT or Claude in the background anyway, but you're right. I would personally rather be in that spot where I can control it and your idea of uploading a PDF is fantastic. We do that for our client work. So when we do work for a client, we create a client bio and

when that client says, I need you to create an email campaign, we upload that bio to ChatGPT or to Quad so that it goes, okay, we're creating content for Paul's company now, and now it remembers what's important to you and your values and your tone and your style and all that. And now when I write content within that chat window, it's going to use your tone and style and reflect your values, your product, your information, your website address, your company name.

because I shared all that with it and a PDF is a fantastic way to do

Paul Povolni (01:03:48.268)
Yeah. And I even actually turned it also into a custom GPT that I only have access to. And all I have to do is type, you know, write show notes. Here's the bio, here's the guest and boom, it does it. And it's amazing. One of the things that I've noticed too is that the, delivery of the language, the difference between Claude and GPT, seems like chat GPT is,

Jonathan Mast (01:03:52.406)
Even better.

Paul Povolni (01:04:13.812)
not quite human, it throws in words and flowery language and stuff that it's like, that's not how real people talk. And that seems like Claude does better at that. Am I right in that or am I imagining

Jonathan Mast (01:04:16.094)
Yes it does.

Jonathan Mast (01:04:26.831)
I believe the same thing. I often compare and say that chat GPT writes in a flowery style. It adds more adjectives and adverbs than are needed. It also adds more emojis than are needed as a general rule. But you can resolve that by just saying no emojis. One of the things that we've done over time and that I do, I have a list of what we call AI words to nuke. it's literally, it's in a PDF, like you said. And so when we're going to be writing for a client or even our stuff,

we upload that as don't use these words and phrases. Now, it's not perfect. If you told me to write copy and not use those, I would probably not use them, but I might forget once in a while. ChatGPT can do that as well. But yes, I do find that Claude tends to write more in the line of how most, at least business people talk. And ChatGPT, think because of just the data it was trained on, tends to write in a, again, with a lot more adverbs and adjectives and emojis.

Paul Povolni (01:04:59.714)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Mast (01:05:25.64)
than what we're going to get out of

Paul Povolni (01:05:25.996)
Yeah. I guess it's kind of like the old school corpse speak, you know, where, you know, you, you know, you throw in words and adjectives and all this stuff to make it sound better than it actually is. And you're not really saying a whole lot. And so, you know, I think, I think monitoring it and not just simply copying and pasting it is going to make a big difference as well. One final thing that, and we've hit an hour here and this has been amazing. One final thing that I've noticed is the diminishing returns. It seems.

Jonathan Mast (01:05:30.799)
Yes, yeah, you're

Paul Povolni (01:05:55.704)
that are happening when you talk too much to it. Is that a case of people not prompting well? Cause I've heard other people tell me this. It's like, yeah, the more I keep telling it, you know, change this or fix this. And it's like, gets worse and worse and worse. And it doesn't like save the good bits. just like redoes everything and makes it worse than it was. Is that just bad prompting? Is that the state of AI? What, what is the cause of

Jonathan Mast (01:06:20.859)
You know, it's a great question. I've noticed it as well. What I don't know, Paul, is I don't know if it's really gotten worse or if my expectations have gotten higher. And I honestly don't know which of those it is. I do think a lot of it boils back to unprompting. Think of it like I have a 17 -year -old. So that's where my mind goes. If I give my 17 -year -old son a list of seven things to do, I'm going to be really lucky if he gets more than two done before he goes, what else did you want me to do, Dad?

just because that's the way it's going to be. And to a certain extent, I think that's one of the difficulties we run into with AI, especially on the ChatGPT side. Again, I think ChatGPT is great. I do prefer Claude a little more. One of the reasons is because I can give Claude seven things to do and it'll get six right. ChatGPT is going to get four five right. And that's not scientific, guys. That's just off the top of my head. So I do think there's difference, but I think a lot of it boils back to us asking ChatGPT or the model,

Paul Povolni (01:06:50.242)
Yeah,

Jonathan Mast (01:07:18.543)
to do too many things at one

Paul Povolni (01:07:21.762)
Yeah. Well, what, well, and what I've, I've noticed that for sure, because like I said, I had that PDF or I have the text document, that I upload and sometimes it'll like answer all of them. And other times it'll like forget big bits of it. And so I know it does, it does forget things, but I'm even talking about when you're in a conversation with it and you know, text is at a good place or, or an image is at a good place and you simply tell it to change one part of it that

Jonathan Mast (01:07:27.536)
Mm -hmm.

Paul Povolni (01:07:48.916)
it throws back to you a whole different thing that sets you back like five steps. It's like, no, you were better like five times ago and now you've like really goofed up and now it's like, I just need to start over. that just, what causes that kind of a

Jonathan Mast (01:07:51.523)
Yes.

Jonathan Mast (01:08:05.339)
I think again it's too much information and remembering that it can only remember so much. So one of the things I believe is that that case copy paste is your best friend. When you get something that's 80 % of the way there, copy it. You can go back and copy it. You don't have to do it right then. But copy it off into a Word doc or a Google doc or something like that and then grab the section or the paragraph that you want rewritten. Copy that back into ChatGPT and go, this is great, but please rewrite this section or rewrite

And what I've noticed ChantGPT used to do is it would rewrite the whole document. It's now begun, and again, I think mainly because of tokens, it's begun just redoing the section that you want. And that's okay because if I'd just given it two paragraphs and it rewrites that, I can just replace those two paragraphs in that document that I created. So I think copy paste is your best friend at that point in time. And part of it's accepting that, you know, we didn't expect AI to be as amazing as it is a year ago. Now we're expecting it sometimes to be

Paul Povolni (01:09:03.51)
Right,

Jonathan Mast (01:09:05.017)
more amazing than it is. And so I think our expectations have evolved a

Paul Povolni (01:09:09.654)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jonathan, this has been amazing. I know we could probably talk for another hour or two. There's so much, so much more and we can do a follow up conversation on it. But this, this alone has been truly amazing. And I think people, if they, they take the framework that you have created is absolutely brilliant and will change their business and change their life. If they just start committing to that and using that and then growing as they go. And so I do encourage you to go back.

Jonathan Mast (01:09:14.619)
I'm sure we could.

Paul Povolni (01:09:35.788)
write down Jonathan's framework, follow him on all social medias. So Jonathan, if somebody wants to follow along with you and get connected with you and be a part of your world, what's the best way to do

Jonathan Mast (01:09:46.871)
Simple and easy. Just remember my name. Go to JonathanMast .com. That's -A -S -T dot com forward slash link tree. If you just type that in as one word, it's got all my contact information. It's got access to my Facebook group, all my social media. Everything you'll need is right

Paul Povolni (01:10:03.148)
Yeah. And, definitely follow along on social media. mean, Jonathan does pour out a lot of great content, that could just make a difference for you and take you to another level when it comes to AI and feel more comfortable with it and using it for all kinds of things that'll benefit you and your writing and your business in what you're doing. Jonathan, this has been amazing, man. Thank you so

Jonathan Mast (01:10:23.419)
Well, thank you for having me on. It's been an absolute pleasure. You're an amazing host and it's really been a great pleasure.

Paul Povolni (01:10:29.538)
Thank

Paul Povolni (01:10:33.376)
Alright man, we're done. That was so cool. Loved

Jonathan Mast (01:10:35.525)
Well, thank you. You are a natural host. It's no wonder the podcast is doing well. You're very good at this.

Paul Povolni (01:10:41.198)
Well, thank you. appreciate it. I've never done anything like this before. So was like so nervous in doing a podcast. I've thought about doing a podcast forever, but I just love talking to people. And I think it's just, it's just been such a ball doing this.

Jonathan Mast (01:10:55.835)
Well, that's awesome. Again, you're very good at it. Thanks for having me on. was an absolute pleasure. If I can ever add value to your audience again, don't hesitate to let me know. Again, I appreciate the opportunity and look forward to seeing this when it goes live and gets published.

Paul Povolni (01:11:09.238)
Yeah, yeah. And I'll let you know once I get it set up of when I'm going to launch it out and pop it out there. Anybody that I've talked to about AI, I try and get this out quickly because AI changes so quickly. so, yeah, I've got a backlog of people that I've interviewed, you know, and so kind of just rolling those out as I can. But anything AI wise, I'll probably release a lot faster than any other topic. Because yeah, it is. It's evolving so fast. We didn't

Jonathan Mast (01:11:11.419)
Please do.

Jonathan Mast (01:11:21.878)
does it ever does it

Jonathan Mast (01:11:34.841)
Well, thank you for

Paul Povolni (01:11:39.042)
Talk about, I'm telling AI to act like a prompt engineer. I know that's quite a magic trick that people can use as well that could help them out. So maybe in our next conversation, we can talk about that.

Jonathan Mast (01:11:45.412)
It is.

Jonathan Mast (01:11:49.391)
Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. That's admittedly how I write most of my prompts now.

Paul Povolni (01:11:55.138)
Yeah, yeah, I think I might've seen that trick from you too. So I think, and I've used that myself and I had it rewrite my podcast notes using that prompt similar to that is ask me some questions and then rewrite this prompt and it just generated amazing, amazing content that was way better than cast magic.

Jonathan Mast (01:12:15.929)
Yeah. Well, that's... I'm sorry, go ahead.

Paul Povolni (01:12:19.864)
Well, people had told me about cast magic and so I tried it and I'm like, this is terrible. I don't like it at all.

Jonathan Mast (01:12:24.811)
Yeah. Well, and especially if do it in Claude, I found Claude writes just amazing prompts and it has very good memory. So it actually incorporates more nuances than what ChatGPT will. And again, like you, the ability to feed it a transcript from my podcast and have it create the notes and create the video title for me and create the timestamps. It's just amazing what it can do for 20 bucks a month.

Paul Povolni (01:12:49.708)
Yeah, yeah. I've, I've, I've signed up for a chat GPT. I haven't signed up for Claude. I've just been playing around with it, but you know, after talking to you and talking to Jeff, you know, it's just like, okay, I need to sign up for Claude as well.

Jonathan Mast (01:13:01.327)
Well, and as long as you're not running into their usage caps, you really don't gain a lot of additional features with Cod. You know, I used to get in fact, I just talked to Jeff about this the other day. I it's like the old drug dealer in the 80s. They give you the drugs for free the first time to get you hooked. Then they tell you if you want more, it's going to cost money. And that's what a lot of the AI models are doing now. You get free access to everything. But if you want to use it more than three times an hour, you got to pay

Paul Povolni (01:13:17.048)
Right,

Paul Povolni (01:13:24.801)
Right, right.

Paul Povolni (01:13:29.046)
Yeah, well, and it used to be Claude, couldn't upload a file, but I think that now you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's big game changer is being able to now upload files to Claude as well. And so I'll probably sign off for that. Are you familiar with the ARC browser? A -R -C?

Jonathan Mast (01:13:32.953)
You can now. Yeah. Yeah. As far as I'm aware. Yeah.

Jonathan Mast (01:13:45.123)
I have used it a little bit, yeah. Because as we talked coming in, I tend to have a gazillion tabs open. I actually purchased, for the first time ever, I bought a browser called Sidebar. And I bought it for one purpose only. A peer of mine who also has too many tabs open said, you know, do you ever run into memory issues? And I'm due for a laptop upgrade, but I'm a Mac guy and they haven't released any with the neural chip yet. And so I'm waiting until they're supposed to happen this fall.

Paul Povolni (01:13:51.992)
Ha

Paul Povolni (01:13:57.337)
okay.

Jonathan Mast (01:14:14.363)
Like I'm not spending $6 ,000 on a laptop and then finding out they introduced a brand new architecture three months later. So I was I was complaining to a peer of mine and he goes, what browser to use? I'm like, I use Chrome. He goes, go out, spend the money on sidebar. And it was an app sumo deal. And I'm like, it can't be that good. It's amazing. It's like specialty is minimizing the memory usage of all those tabs. So I've probably got 100 tabs open right now. And.

Paul Povolni (01:14:36.844)
Wow. Wow.

Jonathan Mast (01:14:42.623)
it's only using based on my memory meter it's only using what maybe two or three would so yeah but arc is really cool i have used arc and it is very

Paul Povolni (01:14:47.874)
Wow, wow, yeah, I'm the same way. Because I know some of the things that they had promoted is similar to what you described Perplexity does, is feeding you better results than Google. And so it's one of my tabs that are open to check out at some point is check out Arc, because I haven't touched it yet.

Jonathan Mast (01:14:56.941)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Jonathan Mast (01:15:06.115)
I have a whole window of those. know exactly what you mean. If somebody mentions, like, ooh, I gotta check that out. And sometimes I get around to them and other times I'm like, I'm never gonna check this out. It's been three months. I guess I don't need to. But yeah, I know exactly what that's like. And that's why I'm a big proponent of just using the major tools that are out there. There are some other great specialty tools, but that's it. They're specialty tools. They don't apply to everybody.

Paul Povolni (01:15:17.954)
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (01:15:24.044)
Right.

Paul Povolni (01:15:30.07)
Right, right, right. Yeah, because yeah, there's image creators and there's, you know, content creators. mean, there is, everybody's jumping on that wagon and, you know, I think the best are going to rise to the top and some of the ones in the top are going to fall by the wayside. You know, it's just such a fresh world. so, you know, it's not going to look anything like this three years from now, even a year from now. And so it's amazing.

Jonathan Mast (01:15:50.285)
It really is.

Jonathan Mast (01:15:56.679)
Yeah, I was just I don't know if you know Darrell Eves. He's a big YouTube producer. So I was just talking to Darrell last week at a yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he was speaking at the conference I was speaking at and we got a chance to chat and he was even saying he goes he goes I can't tell you about all of them, but I've got he's got a great relationship with Google obviously being what he is with YouTube and he goes there are things coming out this fall that I've seen that he goes blow my mind and he goes I even think they're gonna blow your

Paul Povolni (01:16:01.474)
Yeah, yeah, Part of the chosen, right? He helped.

Jonathan Mast (01:16:25.435)
I'm like, I fully expect that. I expect that we're gonna get things that we hardly even imagined today that are gonna be available to us. that's exciting to me because I see that as opportunities for business people, but also for their teams. I love seeing team members' eyes light up and all of a sudden when they get it and they're like, this is really cool for my job too. I don't have to be scared.

Paul Povolni (01:16:34.518)
Yeah,

Paul Povolni (01:16:49.59)
Right. Well, and even Apple AI, I mean, that's going to be a game changer. mean, it's, it's going to suck probably at first, but, they do, they do. And, and so I'm, I'm super excited. That's for me, that's probably the most exciting thing that Apple has done in a while. Like everything else has been iterations, just iteration after iteration, you know, that yeah, yeah, forever since Steve left. And once his fingerprints left stuff, like it was just iterations.

Jonathan Mast (01:16:56.345)
Yeah, but you know, they'll get

Jonathan Mast (01:17:06.009)
Yeah. Yeah. Forever.

Paul Povolni (01:17:16.546)
And so Apple AI really excites me because anytime they enter a space, they change it. You know, at least that was, that was their history. And so my hope is, they've waited this long to do AI that they're going to do something amazing. And so I'm pretty, pretty excited about what, that might look

Jonathan Mast (01:17:21.872)
They

Jonathan Mast (01:17:34.299)
I am too. What I'm envisioning, and we'll have to see, my crystal ball is normally pretty cracked and cloudy, but Apple has always had a tremendous ability to take the complex and simplify it. And I think that's interesting because right now we have both sides of that with AI. We've got the, I don't want to say complex, but the chat GPT where they just give you a prompt and you've got to decide what to do. Then the other end of the spectrum, you've got these tools that have 4 ,000 buttons and everything you want. If you find the right button, it'll do kind of like you were talking about with the podcast.

Paul Povolni (01:17:39.404)
Hahaha

Jonathan Mast (01:18:03.823)
All we have to do is press the right button, but we have to find it. And I think Apple will figure out a way to merge those two together in a way that only Apple seems to be able to do and simplify that complexity.

Paul Povolni (01:18:11.51)
Right.

Paul Povolni (01:18:16.342)
Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. And honestly, even Siri, I use the Siri app before Apple bought it. And it was actually better than the Siri we've had for the. Yeah. You know, it's, better than the Siri that we have right now. And it's been five years or whatever, because it used to be conversational. it used to have an ongoing conversation when, when whoever developed the original app is you would ask it a question, give you a response. And then you'd ask another question and it will clarify. then, you know,

Jonathan Mast (01:18:22.861)
Mm -hmm. I don't doubt

Paul Povolni (01:18:46.05)
It was a conversational thing and then Apple bought it and killed all that great functionality. So hopefully that'll be back with Apple AI and it'll be a lot fresher. And from what I've seen, it looks like that is going to be a

Jonathan Mast (01:18:58.979)
No, I agree. I think it's going to be really good. So I'm looking forward all those. If they don't do something cool this fall, I'll probably still have to buy a new laptop. But we're hoping they do something cool.

Paul Povolni (01:19:07.214)
Yeah, man, I'm still recording this. This has been a great conversation. Let me just stop