Desislava Dobreva - Personal Branding / Memberships

Des Dobreva, a brand strategist and membership expert, shares her origin story and journey of building a successful business.

She emphasizes the importance of branding and the shift in understanding its true meaning.

Des discusses the concept of a filter brand, where she repels people who don't align with her values and attracts the right clients.

She also talks about the evolution of branding and the increased investment in brand strategy.

Branding and marketing are interconnected, with branding being the foundation for effective marketing.

Building a powerful personal brand has become easier with platforms like TikTok and AI technology. AI has the potential to replace certain professions, but building a personal brand and establishing a deep emotional connection with customers can provide a competitive advantage.

The first step in launching a business or personal brand is to understand your identity and core values. Memberships can be created in various niches and provide recurring value to customers, fostering deep relationships and brand loyalty.

Key Points

1. Understand the core identity of your brand to create a strong foundation.
2. Differentiate between branding (identity) and marketing (promotion).
3. Use content and community to build brand loyalty and trust.
4. Membership programs can provide stable, recurring revenue and deepen client relationships.
5. Authenticity and personal stories are crucial for building a lasting brand.

Free Resource: Get Your First 100 Members
Website: http://www.desdobreva.com

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Transcript

Paul Povolni (03:32.302)
Hey, welcome to the Headsmack podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I am excited to have a misfit that I've known for quite a few years. With me today, Des Dobreva is with me and Des is a brand strategist and membership expert and also a TEDx speaker. She's worked in businesses from over 50 industries in the most competitive markets in the world and helped them build profitable brands by going against mainstream business and marketing strategies. Des Dobreva, cac si

Des Dobreva (04:01.998)
my god, did you just speak Bulgarian to me? No way! Still, I love that! And to respond in Bulgarian, NOGO DUBRE!

Paul Povolni (04:04.43)
I did. I did. And that's about all I know.

Paul Povolni (04:13.102)
Good. I'm glad you're doing good. I think our languages have some similarities. So I actually understood that you said something about good. So that's pretty cool. So how you doing?

Des Dobreva (04:23.15)
Nice. I'm doing great. Just fresh off of the gym. Don't worry, I took a shower. Arrived here. I have no idea what's about to happen, but I'm very excited.

Paul Povolni (04:33.262)
Well, I'm looking forward to it. As I said, we've been connected for quite a while. I think 2017 is when we first connected and I don't even remember how we connected. I think it was either something you posted or something somebody else posted and mentioned your name. And so we connected and we've kind of followed each other's journeys since then. And you're very involved with branding. You're also doing a lot with memberships. And so I want to hear all about those.

But I also want to kind of start off with a little bit of your origin story. As you mentioned, you're from Bulgaria. So share as far back as you want to go your origin story. Where did a little des start?

Des Dobreva (05:11.47)
So I was born on a sad winter day. I'm not going to say the year. Once women hit their 30s, we don't reveal the birth year. So, you know, it was a winter day. No, but yeah, I come from Bulgaria. I left. I actually had my 10 -year anniversary of leaving a few months ago, which was bittersweet.

Paul Povolni (05:15.086)
hahahaha

Paul Povolni (05:19.918)
okay, so I won't even ask.

Paul Povolni (05:30.638)
Wow.

Des Dobreva (05:34.126)
I still don't know how I fully feel about that. But I wasn't raised by a wealthy family, few people in Bulgaria are, so I kind of built my way up from nothing, which was interesting. It was a lot. I traveled the world for a while after starting my business. I went to Denmark to do my masters in branding. My parents put me through that. Well, they put me through the first six months before they went bankrupt.

Paul Povolni (05:46.51)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (06:01.87)
my goodness, wow.

Des Dobreva (06:02.574)
Thankfully, I found a job as a dishwasher and I relieved them. This was back in 2014, I think. And then I started freelancing on Upwork, which is something that actually really helped me. I mean, at the time I fully didn't understand anything about pricing, my services or entrepreneurship or anything. I'd never even known a successful entrepreneur in my whole life. So I was working for eight...

Paul Povolni (06:10.862)
huh.

Des Dobreva (06:30.926)
10 bucks an hour on Upwork providing copywriting services, social media management, brand consulting, just anything that I felt I was remotely good at to kind of build myself up, build my skillset. And at some point, I've never had a full -time job. I had a part -time job while doing this. And at some point, it's going to sound a bit arrogant, but I was working at this amazing startup in Copenhagen, right? We had an office dog.

Paul Povolni (06:54.126)
Hahaha.

Des Dobreva (06:59.662)
That's my fondest memory of that. And the CEOs were, I think, three years older than me, two, three years older than me. And I remember every time I stepped into the office, I would see them. Their office was right next to where I was working. And I would think, why is that not me? Like, what is going, why, like, am I incapable? And tell me I'm incapable of something. I'll prove you wrong. And it was a type of job where it was me and 20 guys.

Paul Povolni (07:18.03)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (07:23.278)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (07:29.55)
all Danish, I probably didn't fit in. They were marketing people and coders, mostly coders. So it was very fun. And nobody would listen to my ideas because I'm pretty sure they hired me because they probably received some sort of grant from taking an intern. I don't know. So I wasn't doing much. So I used the whole time to kind of up my skills when it comes to social media management, copywriting, all of that. And as soon as I matched my...

Paul Povolni (07:36.174)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (07:47.598)
wow, yeah, yeah.

Des Dobreva (07:58.606)
tiny, teeny salary with what I was making from freelancing I just left, which was I think about a year into the job. And then from there, I started my business December of 2016 and built it to a hundred K a year business in the first eight months, which was a wild journey. Yeah, I...

Paul Povolni (08:18.254)
Wow, wow. So where did some of that drive come from? You mentioned you came from poverty, you came from Bulgaria, you said not many people are entrepreneurs there and things like that. So where did your drive come from?

Des Dobreva (08:32.91)
Honestly, I wish I knew. I wish I knew my ancestors because maybe there's something there. But I have this thing in me where if you take my parents, for instance, if someone tells them they can't do something, it doesn't create this bubbling anger inside of them where they have to prove the person wrong. They're usually either going to say, well, cool, maybe I can't. Or they just will not even, it's not even going to bother them. But ever since I was in high school, something...

Paul Povolni (08:37.55)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (08:54.478)
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Des Dobreva (09:00.782)
I don't know if it was the bullying. I don't know if it was just never fitting in. I don't know if it was even my teachers thinking I'm not going to amount to anything, but probably all of that combined. Plus, when I was 19, I was cyber bullied and I almost took my own life because of that. So I think when you put all of that together, you either get a person who is extremely weak or you get a person who's extremely strong. It's the two radicals. You know, you don't get someone in the middle.

Paul Povolni (09:27.95)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the cyber bullying, just happened through like social media or through, through, wow. Well,

Des Dobreva (09:37.166)
Facebook. Yeah, which is funny because Facebook then became my main platform for my business growth.

Paul Povolni (09:45.198)
Wow. So you turn the source of pain into a source of business growth. And so, you know, so your, your feeling is that, you know, a lot of that, that bullying the, being told you can't do something, just stirred something in you, just like fired you up. You're an Eastern European woman. You're tough. You know, you're, you're, you're, it's like, this is, this is not who I'm going to be. I'm not going to be who they say that I am. I'm, I'm not that person. And so then you saw this happening in your.

job in this internship or this working with these coders. And so you stepped away from that and you said within your first year you made 100k in doing just copywriting.

Des Dobreva (10:21.518)
No, so when I, so I did a rebranding. I employed a rebranding strategy where in about 45 days up to two months, I think probably it was two months, I decided that I'm going to go from, because I was known as the social media girl, the affordable charges, eight dollars, whatever. I was going to go from that to having properly priced offers and

building my own brand. Because when you freelance on Upwork, you don't really have a, yes, you have a brand, but you're not managing it. You're not growing it. It's not the same as having your own business. So I employed a couple of tactics. I went all in on content. I'm really content to this day. Content creation is my favorite thing. Anything that involves writing, especially. I don't think... Was live streaming? I think live streaming was a thing actually. Yes, I was also live streaming a lot and I was writing.

Paul Povolni (11:09.134)
Yeah, yeah.

Des Dobreva (11:17.102)
And so within 45 days, I had my first $3 ,000 day where I sold my first one -to -one branding intensive, which was a six week 997 program, which I completely freaked out after that because to me, that was a lot of money. I mean, a thousand dollars for me? What? So yeah, it was, I forgot what the question was actually, but it was, that's kind of how it happened.

Paul Povolni (11:32.032)
Right, right, right.

Paul Povolni (11:44.558)
Yeah. Yeah. And so with, with that first thing that happened, that first brand intensive, was that based on the training that you had received in getting your masters? Or was that from things you had learned along the way after that, or a combination of both?

Des Dobreva (11:59.79)
A combination, definitely. So I know that a lot of people, and that was especially big back then in 2017. I don't know if it's as much today, but a lot of people say, you know, screw universities, you don't need an education. And to a large extent, this is true, even with branding, of course you don't need an education to do this for a living. But I will say for me, if it wasn't for that education, and I spent two and a half years doing that in Denmark,

I don't think I would be where I am because I had such a huge advantage compared to anyone else starting in this industry. Like I started with a very solid understanding. Like I was, and I wasn't taught by people who didn't do this for a living. I was taught my branding professor, for example, had a successful branding agency. He was running for more than two decades. So I feel like I was very privileged when I started my business.

Paul Povolni (12:52.078)
So with that brand intensive, what did you find? Has it evolved since then or was that something that you created and that kind of became the core of everything that you've done moving forward? How did that evolve into what you're doing now?

Des Dobreva (13:06.67)
So in that form, it doesn't exist anymore, especially because I actually, after my first year in business, I stopped working one -to -one for about four years. I always have something to prove for some reason. And so I wanted to prove that you can build a successful business without working one -to -one and having high ticket offers. Turns out you can, but that branding intensive actually evolved into my Royalty Branding course, which has now become the core of everything that I teach. And what I do is...

Paul Povolni (13:25.55)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (13:36.558)
Even though I sell it separately, I don't really focus on that. I include it in every single program I sell to make sure that all of my clients, because I work with people who are on such different levels, right? So it's important that they have an equal foundation. Even if they're already successful, even if they're just starting out, I want them when it comes to branding and marketing to take the time to go through this course now, which takes about three hours, three and a half hours, and be able to meet each other in the same level of understanding.

Paul Povolni (14:06.702)
So talk to me a little bit about, you mentioned both branding and marketing. Branding is a big topic. Marketing is a big topic. Things are constantly evolving. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen from when you studied branding to when you first launched and got that first big paycheck that just blew your mind? What do you see has changed in the last few years since you've done that? Because you've been in this for, it seems like a short time, but so much has changed as well.

And so what do you see as the biggest changes when it comes to both branding? And then also I'd love to hear your thoughts on the difference between branding and marketing.

Des Dobreva (14:43.246)
God, don't get me started on that. You know that's dangerous. We should be here five hours from now, just still talking about this. Okay. So I'm curious what you think about this, but when I started in late 2016, early 2017, people to a huge extent still did not really understand. Even entrepreneurs, even successful entrepreneurs had a hard time understanding what branding is.

Paul Povolni (14:45.506)
Let's go.

Hahaha.

Des Dobreva (15:08.59)
So very often it would be, as you know, confused with design, confused with having a logo, colors and all of those things, which again, branding design, not the same thing, right? You could call design the external aspect of branding, of course. And while that is still there, I think it has massively shifted. I think people have become a lot more educated. Even regular consumers who are not business owners have become a lot more educated.

Paul Povolni (15:08.672)
Right.

Paul Povolni (15:13.006)
Right.

Des Dobreva (15:34.286)
And I'm happy to report that in the business space, people value branding so much more now. It was not easy when I started to... I spent a lot of my time on educating my audience on why branding is not optional. It's something that is the absolute foundation of your business. And if you build your business on either no foundation or a cracked foundation, what's going to happen, right?

Paul Povolni (15:58.894)
Right, right.

Des Dobreva (15:59.47)
So I think it has definitely shifted. And one thing that has shifted is now a lot of people have decided to start the businesses as branding experts, which is good and bad, depending on how you choose to look at it.

Paul Povolni (16:12.878)
Yeah. And so what's your definition of branding and what's your definition of brand?

Des Dobreva (16:21.038)
So I mean, I know there's no official definition, but I like to see branding as two things. It's identity and perception, right? So you just, you can't take one of these out. The problem is that a lot of people think branding is just perception, but that's wrong. That's just how your brand is positioned. But the identity piece is the vital piece. The identity piece is all about your essence, the essence of the brand that you're building, whether that brand is your personal brand and they're your name.

or anything else, it's a whole other conversation, but it's your origin story. It's your brand values. It's your brand purpose. It's all of the things. It's even your messaging, all of the things that make the brand who it... I like to think of brands as living things that makes the brand who it is. And so once you have that, but only once you have a really good idea of what that is and you feel very confident and solid that you've properly defined it, which I think most people don't,

Paul Povolni (17:06.542)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Paul Povolni (17:19.725)
Right.

Des Dobreva (17:19.726)
early enough, then you tap into the perception piece, which is, okay, here are the elements as part of your brand strategy, like your tagline, right? And here is where the design piece can come in as well. Here is where I also like to look at the ideal client because now we have the brand purpose, the brand values, the messaging. We know what the brand represents, but now it's important to figure out who we want to work with. And so...

It's who you are and who people perceive you to be. And then the way I like to look at it is if there is a gap between those two things, then we have to employ some sort of a rebranding tactic. The problem with that is that a lot of people don't build their brand based on who they are or if it's a personal brand, they build it on who they want to be. And that's also problematic.

Paul Povolni (18:01.294)
Right.

Paul Povolni (18:10.062)
Right. Right. Right. So talk about that. The, the, who they want to be. What does that mean?

Des Dobreva (18:17.23)
So I've noticed a lot of, and again, this is personal brands. I've noticed a lot of people who have these desired qualities that they want to have, for example, right? Maybe you just to get really basic here. Maybe you want to be more fun. Maybe you want to be really funny. Maybe you want to be more organized. Maybe you want to have this super adventurous life. And, but you don't yet. You just not yet.

Paul Povolni (18:39.79)
Yeah, right.

Des Dobreva (18:42.03)
And so instead of being vulnerable enough and real enough to share with their audience where they are right now, which is ultimately what is going to build that trust and even that authority, they build the brand and they create content as if these things have already happened. And I think it's very problematic for many reasons. One of the biggest ones being any success you achieve with that is not going to feel real because you're essentially wearing a mask and nobody really knows you.

Paul Povolni (19:09.422)
Right. And so, so with, you know, that, that definitely speaks about authenticity and, you know, what, what are your feelings about, creating an alter ego?

Des Dobreva (19:21.458)
Ooh, so that's interesting. I actually have a client who did that. She created a whole alter ego as a part of her brand using cosplay. And it's phenomenal. I mean, it's so interesting. I really like it as long as you're being very honest with people about this being an alter ego. And on platforms like TikTok, for instance, I think you can do very well with putting the alter ego on there and building a whole brand around that.

Paul Povolni (19:30.798)
Mm -hmm.

Paul Povolni (19:39.438)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (19:49.358)
and not hiding that it's an alter ego. People will still find it entertaining. People will still find it interesting, right? And then they can go on Facebook and see who you actually are. I think that could be a really interesting thing to explore for people who maybe really want to tap into their creativity.

Paul Povolni (19:59.246)
Right.

Paul Povolni (20:05.454)
Right. Right. Well, and I think an alter ego too, you know, when, when I, when I speak on stage or when I sometimes even in front of the camera, there's a, a version of me that I feel I have to put on because I'm more introverted. Like I would rather just be by myself doing my own thing or with, with my close group of people. But when I have to do this, you know, be on a podcast, when I have to speak from stage, when I lead a workshop.

Des Dobreva (20:24.366)
Mmm.

Paul Povolni (20:32.686)
I, there's a persona that I have to put on that I have to step into, you know, that, that is, that's Voppa That's, that's a different person than my regular person. And some people feel that, well, I've got to be authentic. And so I've got to be the same person in every situation, but sometimes there is, you, you are allowed to have a, a alter ego or a, a version of you that is out there. Now it's still a real person. You're not a actor. You're not a.

You know, whatever, you know, you're still a real person, but it's just an alternative alter ego, aversion of yourself, you know? And I think performers do this as well. You know, you speak to any, even athletes do this and, you know, Beyonce, I think she has a, what's the name of her alter ego? Something. she, and so that's, that's her stage per yes, there you go. There you go. And so she, that's her persona that she.

Des Dobreva (21:18.83)
Yeah, she does yeah, mm -hmm Sasha fears Sasha fears

Paul Povolni (21:30.158)
That's when she's on stage, she says, now I am stepping into this role and therefore I am that person during that time. And then when I step off that stage, I'm a different person. And so it takes away fear, I think as well.

Des Dobreva (21:30.382)
Mm -hmm.

Des Dobreva (21:44.078)
It does. And so I love that you call that the alter ego. So I teach this as part of creating your brand strategy and I do call it the brand persona. And this goes to the perception piece of branding, not the identity one. So the way I like to look at it is we're all complex human beings, right? We have all kinds of different personality traits, all kinds of characteristics that define who we are. We're not one thing ever. But when you...

decide to build a brand, especially in the online space where there's a lot of noise. I believe that one of the best ways to do that is to pick one of those traits, one of those aspects of your personality and really double down on that. The other things, you're still those things too, right? But you're picking very consciously one thing to build the brand around. And this will then be reflected in everything from photo shoots that you do to how you express yourself. And it shouldn't be forced.

This is very important. So for me, I picked my confidence. I picked to build my brand around that. I could have picked other things, right? You could pick your kindness, your generosity, your awkwardness, your sense of humor. I love brands where that's the main thing. I picked that because it connects very deeply to my story and what I've been through and everything. And it does feel natural because it already is who I am.

Paul Povolni (23:05.998)
Right. It's just, it's just an augmented version of who you are, or it's a, a, like you said, it's a segment of who you are. And so for me, you know, when I, when I do things like that, it also helps me take away fear because I almost disassociate myself with the awkward, you know, introvert version of me. And so it actually lets me like, I can speak from stage in front of thousands. And I've done that without fear, but it's not arrogance. It's just, I've, I'm able to say, I am stepping now into this role.

Des Dobreva (23:08.526)
Mm -hmm.

Paul Povolni (23:35.47)
because I have a responsibility to do what I'm doing. And I think, I think you could do that with a personal brand as well is allow yourself to have this version of you. This, this, what was that name again? That Beyonce has fears, Sasha fears, you know, I am now stepping into Sasha fears and then I will retreat into wherever I feel most comfortable. And I think, I think there's power in that. So with your brand, with what you've done, do you feel you have an alter ego?

Des Dobreva (23:49.742)
Sasha, yours.

Des Dobreva (24:04.398)
Honestly, I don't, I wouldn't say so. I just don't see it that way. I, and I don't want to be that cliched of a person because I'm the exact same person online is offline. There are certain aspects of my personality that I have began to notice do not show online as much. Like I'm a very goofy person, for example, if you meet me in person, it's just, it's ridiculous. I've noticed that maybe, and that's again, because I made a conscious choice of it's the confidence.

Paul Povolni (24:23.47)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (24:33.742)
I think maybe it overshadows that a little bit. But no, I don't really feel like that. I think I just keep reminding myself of, okay, when you create content, you need to create it around all the different values, showcase your personality, let it shine in all the different ways and show people each version of you is how I like to think of it because there isn't one version of you.

Paul Povolni (24:33.87)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (24:51.758)
Right.

Right, so talk to me about building the idea of a filter brand.

Des Dobreva (25:01.806)
So I came up with this concept ages ago, I think in the first year of my business. And it really is very simple. I just kept seeing people trying so hard to attract the right clients and they would bend over backwards to do that. They would be sending all these DMs, creating this content that always ended up being very vanilla. Because when you're trying to please everyone, you're pleasing no one, right? When you're speaking to everyone, you're speaking to nobody.

And so that's when I started thinking, how can I teach client attraction in a way that makes it super crystal clear? And in a way, whenever I see something being told in a certain way, I just try to run away in the opposite direction. So I thought, okay, well, let's teach the opposite. Let's teach them how to repel all of the people that shouldn't be there in the first place. Whether that's because there aren't any shared values, whether it's because there is, so for example, with me,

Paul Povolni (25:42.51)
Hehehehe

Des Dobreva (25:56.366)
I create a lot of content that is meant to filter people out. And one of the type of people I want to filter out is very judgmental people. Because if I don't do that, then they'll end up buying my... And this has happened. They'll end up buying my stuff. And then they'll be on the inside behind the paywall and they'll start to create a toxic environment inside my community. And that's just not acceptable.

Paul Povolni (26:19.886)
Yeah. And so what are some ways that a person could start looking at building that filter brand? And it sounds like, you know, even that concept kind of came out of that bullying, you know, if you don't like me and you're a judgmental, I don't want to be, I don't want you part of my network. So for somebody else that's building a brand, you know, how could they implement something like a filter brand?

Des Dobreva (26:42.766)
I think it did. I didn't realize that until you just said it. It probably did come from there. I was in a very unhealed state when I started my business and any attention was good attention, especially negative one. It made me feel very special. Thankfully we're past that now. Now it still happens. I just don't care. Yeah. So how can you start building that? Well, if you create your brand strategy,

Paul Povolni (26:58.314)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (27:07.886)
in a way where you're deeply focused on not just the person you want to work with, but the person you don't want to work with. There are certain things you can implement. So for example, I like to look at it and I don't do client avatars in the sense that, it's Jane. She's 35 years old and she drinks smoothies every day at 5 a I don't do that, but I still like to imagine what a day in their life looks like. And so...

I like to ask my clients, well, what does a day in the life look like of people you would never want around you and around your brand? And so you would be surprised at how easy it is to visualize that. I remember I asked one of my clients once and she said, well, I do not want to work with people who get up in the morning and just live in delusion the whole day. They go kiss their husband that they hate.

Paul Povolni (27:46.638)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (27:55.342)
I'm sorry.

Des Dobreva (27:58.574)
They go take out the dog that they can't stand, but they're stuck taking care of because the husband brought it in the house and she couldn't say no. They go and drop the kids off at school even though they've done it seven days this week. And really, why is my husband not doing anything? And I was like, wow, that's wildly specific, but okay. That's stuck in my head to this day, but you see what I mean? So she wants to repel people who live in delusion, who have this...

Paul Povolni (28:14.446)
I'm very specific, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Des Dobreva (28:26.51)
not the opposite of whatever blissfully happy life is. And they don't want to let go because they're too terrified that there's nothing better out there. And so she then can take that, use those exact words and translate it into content. And then once they start, because they will be there, they'll notice the content, they'll start engaging. She can then, I don't know why I'm saying she, but the person can then start monitoring the language that these people are using and make sure she never uses it ever.

Paul Povolni (28:35.31)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (28:45.742)
Yeah.

Right.

Des Dobreva (28:54.926)
in her copy for her offers.

Paul Povolni (28:55.246)
Yeah.

So what are some other ways to repel the people that you don't want part of your network? What are some other things you could do?

Des Dobreva (29:04.142)
Well, I'm a big fan to this day of creating polarizing content. I've just turned down the frequency of it at this point. I went a little wild in my... That's probably how we met. I went a little wild. Yeah, in my 20s, it happens. I just, again, any attention, good attention, right? But I've since dialed it down and understood that it really shouldn't make up for more than 10 % of your content. Anything over that and you're just gonna be seen as very angry.

Paul Povolni (29:12.986)
In your youth, in your younger days, in the old days, yeah.

Paul Povolni (29:32.334)
Yeah, yeah.

Des Dobreva (29:33.934)
So a polarizing piece of content should not be polarizing for the sake of being polarizing. Look within and find opinions on, and it doesn't have to be connected to business. That's the interesting thing. Find opinions that go against the norm of what a lot of people might agree with. Let me see. My stance on free speech, for example, you would not think that's controversial, but every time I talk about it, people get angry.

Paul Povolni (30:02.862)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (30:03.022)
However, the people who are my clients, who are meant to be my clients, they just say, you know, I respect your stance. Yeah, I disagree, but I respect it. And then everyone else goes, you, how dare, what? You are the problem. You are, how dare you say this? You should be canceled, repelled. And usually they just end up blocking me. One of the things I really don't like is me having to go unfriend people, block people. I just, I don't do this.

Paul Povolni (30:10.062)
Right.

Paul Povolni (30:21.358)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (30:32.526)
I've blocked maybe three people in the last seven years. I would much rather them do the work.

Paul Povolni (30:35.758)
Yeah.

They do the self -filtering. Yeah. Yeah. They realize that you're just not my person. And I think some people do fear that because they fear that, you know, if I, if I get polarizing, if I share my values that I'm going to lose potential clients, but what it actually does is yeah, you will lose potential clients, but you'll also attract a whole new group of clients as well. And suddenly.

Des Dobreva (30:40.43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Des Dobreva (31:00.494)
Yeah. Well, you lose potential clients, but you attract the right clients.

Paul Povolni (31:04.43)
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, we've talked about branding. What are some of the other ways that you've seen branding change over the last few years? You know, it started off, everybody was talking about it. Then everybody was talking about being a brand strategist. I think that that's kind of people have moved beyond that and they've kind of chased the next thing, you know, whether it's AI or NFTs. Well, that's kind of faded away too. But so, so how do you see that things have changed when it comes to branding and the time that you've been working in it?

Des Dobreva (31:34.126)
One, I've seen way more people invest in it and not just in a photo shoot and a website, the actual brand strategy. And back to a question I didn't answer, I do see more people understanding the difference between branding and marketing, which, my God, the arguments I had in the first year of my business. I don't know why I was so focused on arguing with people about the difference between those two things. I just very deeply cared. And...

Paul Povolni (32:01.838)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (32:03.47)
Back then, people would say things like, you know, well, branding is just part of marketing. Marketing is everything. Or of course marketing comes first and branding comes second. And that's usually because they think branding is a website, which I understand if that's what you think I get why you're saying that. So I very rarely see those conversations anymore. People seem to have just educated themselves better.

Paul Povolni (32:14.286)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (32:17.998)
Right, right.

Des Dobreva (32:29.998)
And to answer the question, what's the difference between branding and marketing? If you are not building, are not focused on building a powerful brand, what are you marketing? Right? You're marketing without knowing who you're speaking to, how you're speaking to them, what are you speaking about? That's the branding. Marketing is taking that message, taking that brand and sharing it with the world.

Paul Povolni (32:30.03)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (32:47.598)
Right.

Paul Povolni (32:53.326)
Right. Yeah, I agree with that. And so, so how has it changed? What are some other ways that you've seen branding change as people of as technology, as education, as awareness has happened, especially with, you know, people just kind of rising into popularity and and building these powerful personal brands. How do you see things changing?

Des Dobreva (33:15.598)
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because if I had looked 10 years back to 2024, I would never have believed the words I'm about to say, but it's actually never been easier to build a powerful personal brand. I mean, look at TikTok. People were exploding overnight. Now, when I say easier, it's not actually easy.

Paul Povolni (33:29.421)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (33:38.67)
But because of platforms like these that make it possible for you to go viral in the ways that you are going viral, this didn't exist to this level back then, right? People are still going viral, but now they're doing it a lot more intentionally because now they have the understanding of what it can do for them. So now they're actually being strategic about it. And if they're not being strategic about it, they become strategic about it very quickly as soon as the thing happens and they go viral. So that's one interesting phenomenon.

Then of course we have AI now, 2023 will forever be known as the year that made AI mainstream and things very rapidly shifted. One thing that I always say to my clients, I have a program called Gold Standard where I teach advanced branding tactics. And when I'm promoting it, I always say to my audience that the best time to build a successful brand was yesterday. The next time is today. And with AI being here right now,

Paul Povolni (34:32.078)
Ha ha ha.

Des Dobreva (34:36.75)
it's going to become a lot harder, especially if you're not willing to put yourself on video and be on TikTok. And I'm not even on TikTok, but you know, I apparently, I like things difficult. If you're not willing to do that, it's going to be hard. So what AI has done is, I don't know if you know this, but there are accounts out there, especially on Instagram and TikTok that are AI. They're not real people. And...

Paul Povolni (35:00.558)
Yeah? Yeah?

Des Dobreva (35:02.382)
One of them I saw, it hit the news recently, is making $10 ,000 or $20 ,000 a month. It's just a model AI. It's a woman who's supposedly a model and all of these brands are collaborating and paying her to showcase the clothes. And so... my God.

Paul Povolni (35:09.422)
Right.

Paul Povolni (35:18.414)
Yeah, yeah, it's a group of three people that have created this fake celebrity or fake influencer that they totally AI generated. Everything about her is AI generated. And it's like three, three geeks that know how to write prompts and create these things and make them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Des Dobreva (35:24.75)
Unbelievable.

Des Dobreva (35:32.654)
It's something you'll -

Des Dobreva (35:38.414)
It's insane. And like, I don't know, I don't see it as good or bad. It's just neutral. It's just what it is. It's what happens. But one of the things that I would love for people to understand about AI, the connection between AI and branding is that if you focus on building your brand now, then by the time AI has been even more integrated into our lives, which is rapidly occurring, you will have such a huge advantage over it because what are the top two reasons people buy from people?

Paul Povolni (35:44.078)
Right.

Des Dobreva (36:07.022)
One, your story. So many of my clients work with me because my story inspired them to pay attention. Two, your personality, your brand personality. Everyone can be good at what they do. That's not why people actually choose who they work with. That just levels the playing field. It's the bare minimum. And so take those two things, right? The brand personality. Okay, at some point AI will have everything. Sense of humor, personality, will be able to fake everything. But the origin story.

was the origin story of an AI, where some dude with a keyboard came and coded me, and now I'm here. No, you'll always be the AI when it comes to that, but you have to actually solidify these things and build the brand first. So you are always the one being chosen.

Paul Povolni (36:51.118)
Right. And I think, I think, you know, AI can be used to augment your activity and make it easier, make things faster, but, you know, totally replacing the human element. I think that's where, for those that do it, they'll find, they'll find measures of success, you know, that, you know, people like that do, but I think the ones that survive the longest are the ones that are built on people. Cause people like people, people like real people. And those are the ones that will endure. It's the.

Des Dobreva (37:07.054)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (37:19.95)
The phony, the AI generator, all of that stuff, I think is a fad in some ways and is also a thing that does work in some instances, but for the most part, people are going to be attracted to real people. They're going to be attracted to real stories.

Des Dobreva (37:37.454)
Yeah, I'm very curious to see if you're right. Half of me believes that and the other half of me is seeing so many professions being replaced already. And I believe that the best bet to not be replaced is to build the brand because when people have a deep emotional connection with your brand, why would they ever replace whatever it is, a copywriter, a designer, a branding expert, an accountant, architect?

Paul Povolni (38:02.51)
Right.

Des Dobreva (38:06.51)
Why would they replace you with an AI if that's the case?

Paul Povolni (38:10.286)
Right. Absolutely. And I, yeah, I think those, those relationships and I think, you know, with AI is, you know, it can augment stuff. It can replace stuff. And just like with every new technology, printing press, you know, television, computer, all of that, there was always some area, some profession, something that was replaced. And that just, that's just how life is. And so I think, so I think people that either adapted and use it and figure out how to.

Des Dobreva (38:21.262)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (38:39.086)
make it a part of their workflow, make it a part of what they do, I think are going to thrive. They're the ones that are going to, you know, beat out the people that ignore it totally. But I do, you know, agree with you that building that personal brand is a powerful way and that personal relationship and sharing your story and being a real person that deals with real people. I think there's going to be a place for that. And I think people are going to be drawn to that incredibly in the future and not simply, you know, AI and AI.

Stuff is going to be entertainment. It's going to be interesting. It's going to be a novelty if it's solely that. But I think there's finding the collaboration between the two, I think is where the power lies when it comes to building a brand. And I think there's also power in, you know, building a personal brand is, and building a brand I think is super powerful. You know, you look at Elon Musk, you look at Steve Jobs, like they're, they built a personal brand that then attached a product to it.

Des Dobreva (39:37.71)
Mm.

Paul Povolni (39:37.774)
And, you know, it wasn't about branding. It wasn't necessarily about the visuals, the logos, the colors. It was, it was, they built a personal brand by being out there and being authentically who they are. Do you feel that, you know, when it came to building your brand, that there was an element of personal brand building before there was branding, or do you feel you did at the same time?

Des Dobreva (40:02.03)
What do you mean before there was branding as in before I started my business?

Paul Povolni (40:06.542)
Before you did branding, branding being the activity of visuals and putting together the stuff, the color palettes, all of that stuff, did you work on building a personal brand before you worried about that or did you do them both at the same time?

Des Dobreva (40:26.286)
So interestingly enough, I've always had a really strong personal brand ever since I was a teenager without realizing it. And that's only because it was a very subconscious thing. I just always knew what I wanted. I was always very clear when I express myself. And so that very quickly established my presence in the people who knew me in their minds as in, okay, she's this. And so there was never any question, is she this or is she this? No, she is this.

And I didn't fully understand this until, and this is interesting. So my first ever tattoo is the letter A on my wrist. So I got this in 2013 or 14 when I moved to Denmark. And at the time I really wanted to achieve something in life. And I saw myself as a really ambitious person and I really, I'd been through some hard stuff and I wanted something on my body that would always remind me to keep pushing forward. And so I did a little exercise. I,

messaged all of the people who knew me, my friends, my family, and I asked them to describe me with a couple of words. I think I asked them to describe me with three words. And I kid you not, they were 90 % the same amongst all of these people and ambitious was one of the words. It was crazy. And that's when it really hit me. Wow, I've done this. Okay, interesting.

Paul Povolni (41:40.174)
Wow.

Paul Povolni (41:43.886)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (41:52.11)
And you build a personal brand and then, and I think, I think there is, I think there's power in building a personal brand for some people in building a personal brand, who you are, what you're about, your, your, your passions, your purpose, your core values and putting it out there and letting people know about it. And, you know, even before you start building the branding around it, the visuals, the.

the, the, the activity, you know, I think, you know, brand is reputation, branding is activity. And so, you know, even before you start doing all the branding activity that for some people building a personal brand is probably the first step is who, who are you, what are you about? What matters to you? What are, and all of that stuff. And I think there's power in doing that before you even move into branding. And so I see people do that and it's kind of interesting kind of seeing people that.

You know, have built a personal brand and you can't tell them you can't, you don't know what their logo is. You don't know what their brand colors are. Like you don't know any of that, but they've just built a personal brand. Alex Hemosy is kind of there. He doesn't, you know, if you were to say what's the Alex Hemosy look for his branding, you wouldn't be able to nail it. But as far as him, his look, his personal brand, you know, with the no strips and the tank tops and the ball caps and the, you know, that's, that's his personal brand that he's built. And so I think there's definitely power in that.

what are some, some other things that people, when it comes to branding and creating a brand, and I do want to talk about what you're doing with memberships as well. but let's just wrap it up for somebody that is considering launching a business, launching a personal brand. what's the first thing that you tell them? Look, you've got to nail this before you go any further.

Des Dobreva (43:13.294)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (43:35.662)
your understanding of your identity. So exactly what you said, who you are. If you are not unshakable and understanding, okay, this is who I am, this is my path, this is my direction. And you can start a business in one way, you can change your mind. Usually you will, things evolve, brands evolve, that's fine. But you have to through all of that, know your core values, know the reason for doing this in the first place. I'm not a fan of people starting businesses without having a very solid...

purpose in mind. And yes, I know technically the business itself can help you connect to the purpose, but you should have some sort of an understanding of what's the impact that you want to create in the world and how does this business support that. And I know that people might say, but my business doesn't have to support that. I can start a nonprofit. I can do this. I can do that. I don't know. For me, everything that I do needs to be connected to my purpose.

Paul Povolni (44:31.598)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (44:31.63)
And so once you know who you are, once you know your identity, everything else will be 10 times easier for you.

Paul Povolni (44:37.55)
Right. Yeah. I've always said identity brings clarity. And once, once you have your identity down, it really lets you know what to do next. What the things are that a person like you does, you know, and so once you understand that identity of this is who I am, this is what I'm about. Then, you know, a person like me does things like this, you know, and that gives you that clarity to move forward. So as you worked in, you know, you, you kind of launch into the branding space and now you're doing a lot of work when it comes to memberships. How did that.

Des Dobreva (44:40.718)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (45:07.022)
transition happened. When did it happen? Why did it happen? And what's going on with that?

Des Dobreva (45:13.166)
Oddly enough, it was a very natural transition as most things are with me. I just started a membership in the first two months of my business. So business started December 2017 by February, no, sorry, 2016. And then February of 2017, I had started my membership. I didn't start my membership to make money. Funnily enough, I was way too inexperienced, green and naive at the time to think like that. And I started it against the advice of my...

Paul Povolni (45:39.886)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (45:42.542)
business coach at the time who said, this is a terrible idea. This will not make you any money, which just motivated me more. I thought, great, let's do this. And it played a huge role in my business exploding in that first year. Not because the membership produced that much money. It only generated $9 ,900 in its first year. But because I built that community and...

Paul Povolni (45:51.406)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Des Dobreva (46:10.222)
that brand loyalty and that trust, it just exploded my business. I'm still retaining all my clients, a lot of my clients from there, largely thanks to the membership. And so I had that going for about a year and a half. I think that was the point where I'd started hitting 10K months purely from the membership. And my people in the membership started telling me, you know, I want that for myself. This is so great. Like tell me how to do it.

And so I started just giving them advice on the mastermind calls about starting their own version of BBS. And they started doing it and it started working. And I thought, my God, this is crazy. Could I teach this? But I didn't feel qualified enough. So I did it for free for a while. And then at some point, I think early 2019, I launched the first version of my Recurrent Revenue Program, which was just a group program.

Paul Povolni (46:36.718)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (46:49.71)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (47:03.63)
where I would take 10 to 13, 14 people and teach them the framework I had designed. And it really was a test, I had no idea. And it just surprised me. It exploded. And then in January of 2021, I took that and I turned it into a sort of a hybrid of a program where it's a pre -recorded course.

Paul Povolni (47:13.422)
Yeah.

Heheheheh

Des Dobreva (47:28.302)
where they can go at their own pace with a live support group where they get live guidance from me. That's because I think creating something as monumental as a membership, which is a huge shift in thinking. You're going from what everyone else tells you to do, which is high ticket. If you don't sell high ticket, you don't have a business. Blah, blah. To, hey, recurring revenue. Actually, I choose stability. And actually I choose...

Paul Povolni (47:49.23)
Hahaha.

Des Dobreva (47:55.182)
to focus on predictable income. So then I can get the high ticket sales from existing clients rather than from chasing random people in my audience. So yeah, and then that also exploded. And now I've had about 600 people who've been through that and I've somehow managed to establish myself in the membership space, which still surprises me to this day. But you know what? I see it as...

Paul Povolni (48:03.086)
Right.

Paul Povolni (48:10.734)
Wow.

Des Dobreva (48:18.862)
I focus on teaching the two most important assets in anyone's business. Your personal brand, which is your lifelong asset who will serve you forever if you nurture it. And then your recurring revenue asset, which is how you accumulate capital, which is how you're allowed to begin to build wealth. So it kind of makes sense.

Paul Povolni (48:37.006)
Yeah. And so, so with, with the membership, like who, who is it for and who is it not for? Like who, who does this work perfectly for and for who is it like not the right next step.

Des Dobreva (48:50.478)
I have noticed that there are people who really don't like feeling responsible for a large group of people. And that's okay. I have this belief that if you're stepping into entrepreneurship, you have a responsibility to put your gifts out there and help people to the best of your ability on a large scale, if possible. That's always how I've seen it. To me, large groups, it comes naturally. I've always...

created communities. But if you really do feel like, and it's not just fear talking, right? It's not just some level of imposter syndrome. You're genuinely sitting here and saying, this is not for me. My whole body is rejecting it. Fine. Don't do it. There's so many other things you can do. There's no right or wrong business model. If you really feel like your nervous system is not on fire because you start every month at zero or whatever,

That's fine. I'm not like that. I am very risk averse Probably comes from my childhood. I just do not like taking massive risks And so my membership has allowed me all these years to be able to make investments from a place of safety But I know I sound very biased I genuinely I think most people should have a membership but I have witnessed with some of my clients that They don't like committing to the consistency of a membership

Paul Povolni (50:02.506)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (50:10.734)
which I think if you can do that also, it's not for you. In mind, we have weekly calls. You don't have to do that. There's seven different types of memberships. You don't even have to have a live element to it. It is largely expected in the online coaching and mentorship space that you will add a community to it and you will add some sort of a live coaching or a mastermind element though.

Paul Povolni (50:14.446)
Right.

Paul Povolni (50:34.126)
So for those that are not familiar with the term memberships, can you explain what that means? What does that mean? Is it creating a Facebook group? Is it like what, for those that are like membership, what does that mean? You know, I know gym membership was a membership when it comes to, to what, what Desi is talking about mean.

Des Dobreva (50:40.782)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (50:52.174)
Yeah, and that is a membership. That's one of the models for sure. And it's not too different. You are being paid on a monthly or usually monthly or an annual basis for any type of recurring value that you are creating. There's, for instance, memberships that are, I'm subscribed to a membership by ex -CIA analyst where all he does is he creates, I think, one article per week or per month evaluating and leaving commentary on the geopolitical state of the world. And...

All I pay for, I pay seven, eight bucks a month for one article for a certain timeline. That's a membership, technically. In my case, my membership is a hybrid of a content database with my frameworks for building a successful business plus mastermind calls with me plus a community. So you can pick and choose what it's like, but you have to provide recurring value so that you get paid on a recurring basis. It really is all value -based. If people don't feel like they're getting recurring value, your retention will drop.

Paul Povolni (51:25.998)
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (51:49.902)
Right. And so for the person that feels like, well, man, I don't know whether I can get on a call and teach every week or, you know, you know, what, where do I get ideas for that? Like, is, is that the person that this is not for that feel that they don't have enough content or is that just imposter syndrome speaking or like what, what, what are some of the fears that people have around creating a membership?

Des Dobreva (52:12.974)
Usually it is imposter syndrome speaking. You don't have to teach. There are memberships that are, you don't only have to position yourself as an expert. So the expert model is just one model. There are also memberships aimed at hobbyists, at employees. There are memberships where you're just focusing on leading the community, but not as the expert. You're not there to provide advice, coaching, mentorship. You're just there to facilitate connections, relationships, et cetera. There's networking memberships, for instance.

Now, if you do want to position yourself as the expert, honestly, that's the least thing to worry about because your members will give you endless supply of ideas of what to discuss. My calls that I run are purely mastermind calls. They come with a question or they come not knowing what the question is sometimes. I just helped them get to it. But it's very, it's very, what's the word? You don't need to prepare if that's how you're going to run it.

Paul Povolni (52:56.11)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Des Dobreva (53:07.662)
I'm really sorry, my battery is about to die and my charger isn't working. Do you mind if I go and get it? I'm so sorry. Give me one minute.

Paul Povolni (53:12.43)
No, absolutely. We can pause this and not a problem. Yeah.

Des Dobreva (53:54.19)
I am so sorry, this never happens to me. Look at my hair, I was running.

Paul Povolni (53:55.662)
That's okay. I think I just had a storm come through too. So I heard some sounds come through my earphones and I'm like, man, I hope my power doesn't go out again in the middle of a call.

Des Dobreva (54:08.494)
We saved it we saved it at 3 %

Paul Povolni (54:10.734)
Awesome. Close call. Close call. All right. And so, so let's see, we were talking about the different kinds of memberships.

Des Dobreva (54:19.95)
Yeah. I think you asked me about the expert model and how you can make sure that you know what to talk about. Honestly, that's, I think for me, it's never really been a worry because when you put a group of people together in a metaphorical room, how can you run out of ideas, right? For me, my membership has been the reason I created all of my other programs because...

Paul Povolni (54:29.774)
Right.

Des Dobreva (54:47.054)
They have so many conversations inside the Facebook group. So I have a Facebook group where we talk to each other. And someone would say something like, well, I wish that there was a specific course to teach me just about building authority. great. Let's create it. And so I did. And it's one of my programs that actually sold them the best and performed the best because the idea from it came from my already existing clients.

Paul Povolni (55:05.902)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (55:15.822)
which are the ones who ended up buying it. So your membership is great for market research. It's great for idea generation. It's great for building brand loyalty. It's great for selling high ticket offers if that's what you want. I mean, my mastermind, so I started a high level mastermind in, my God, in January of this year. And I have eight people inside and seven of them came from my membership, which...

Paul Povolni (55:16.174)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (55:44.686)
goes completely against what people in this space teach because everyone will tell you, if someone pays you $100, $200 a month for a membership, they'll never buy a $30 ,000 a year mastermind. Well, actually, yes, they will because this is how you build trust. That's the whole point. Who will buy it? An existing client or someone from your random audience who just spit out 30 grand at you without ever working with you? It doesn't make any sense.

Paul Povolni (56:03.118)
Right.

Paul Povolni (56:12.749)
Right. So it's a good, good way to nurture people into other offers that you might have. What are some of the kinds of businesses that you have helped? in what categories have you helped people create these memberships? So somebody's listening to this and they're saying, well, I do this kind of thing. This is what I do. This is my thing is member is creating a membership. The right thing for me. What are some of the types of people that you'll successfully help create a membership?

Des Dobreva (56:16.013)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (56:40.558)
Honestly, I really should count the niches at one point because there are so many, anyone from people in real estate to I even had a client who runs a Kava bar, actually. I don't know if you know what Kava is. I didn't until I...

Paul Povolni (56:55.438)
Isn't it, isn't it a natural form of some sort of like a tea coffee replacement? Yeah. Yeah.

Des Dobreva (56:59.502)
Yeah, it's yeah, sort of. Yeah, it's a drink. This was back in 2019, I think he was in the States. So yeah, real estate, even in person businesses, obviously, gyms already have memberships, but there's a lot that gyms can actually do to improve them, to be fair. A lot of spiritual business owners, a lot of service based, I just had a client launch a gardening membership, which is so great.

Paul Povolni (57:27.246)
Wow.

Des Dobreva (57:27.31)
She also has an upgrade where you can buy a level of the membership that includes a subscription box where she sends them things from the garden like fruit and vegetables. That's probably my current favorite one because so many people in that space could never believe that they can do that. This is not someone I helped, but I saw someone build a membership. So he was very passionate about building furniture out of...

Paul Povolni (57:37.966)
wow.

Paul Povolni (57:46.766)
right?

Des Dobreva (57:55.694)
out of wood, he set up his own workshop in his garden and everything. And he thought, what if I could monetize this, but not by selling it. This is entrepreneurship in power, not by just selling it, by teaching others how to do it. So that's a hobbyist membership, right? These people are not building businesses with it. They just want a hobby. And it has blown up. Last I checked that that guy was making half a million dollars a year or something like that. How amazing.

Paul Povolni (58:11.022)
Yeah, yeah.

Paul Povolni (58:21.71)
That's amazing. That is awesome. And so it sounds like, you know, membership, you know, backtracking a little bit, the creation of membership was you had a problem that you figured out how to solve. And it ended up actually other people needed the same kind of problem solved and it turned into a business. And I think for a lot of people, and I, and I shared this with somebody else on a podcast too, is, is for a lot of people, they.

they figure out how to solve a problem and don't realize that there are other people with the same problem. And you could actually turn the fact that you solve the problem into a job, into a job, into an occupation, into something that you do or something that you offer others. And it seems like that's what happened with you, even with the membership is you solved a problem, you figured out how to do it. And then people are like, well, how did you solve that problem? You're like, well, I guess I'll show you, you know, you said you did it for free and then.

Now it's probably your most profitable thing that you're doing now, or is it still the brand strategy stuff, or is it a combination of the both?

Des Dobreva (59:25.198)
Hmm, that's a good question. I think between the branding and the membership, it's probably even right now because on top of my membership where we largely focus on branding and just building a business from the branding lens, I have a variety of other programs that focus on branding. So really the only offer that I have that teaches memberships is my recurring revenue program. While that brings a huge chunk of my income in, it's just one.

And then there's five other places where I teach different aspects of branding, whether that's authority or building trust or whatever it is.

Paul Povolni (01:00:00.654)
What's your favorite story of somebody that built a membership through your program? What's your favorite story of somebody that just rocked it?

Des Dobreva (01:00:11.598)
my God, how do you pick? Everyone's gonna be angry because I didn't choose them. They're gonna listen to this going, is she gonna say my name?

Paul Povolni (01:00:16.078)
Just one of them. Since we don't have time, you're just choosing one. Not the best one, just one of them.

Des Dobreva (01:00:23.502)
Well, one of the stories that's really close to my heart is someone who actually became my friend after building her membership. We're really close now. When she stepped into my world, the membership was, I think, the first thing that she built. So she was really burnt out from her time in corporate. It didn't end well. She was feeling really down and she didn't really think she could have a business. And so she found me, I think, from an ad or something. And then she stepped into the program.

Her name is Hannah and she built a membership called the Sales Pack. And I just, I swear it's like, if you, if we see a before and after photo of this human, the before would be something like metaphorically looking like this. And then the after would be like this because she just transformed. She built such a powerful emotional connection to these humans that she was helping. So she's a sales coach and consultant, which is what she did in corporate too.

Paul Povolni (01:01:14.606)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (01:01:23.406)
And this membership has been, she had a very successful launch. It's a very successful membership. It helped her build a six -figure business. All of that is great. But she says that she found almost a family just by creating this offer. And it was a beautiful thing to see. So I think a lot of people think of memberships purely as let's make some money and recurring revenue and stability. And I know I market it largely that way too, but for me, the biggest...

benefit of a membership. It's just apart from a high level mastermind, there's no better way to build deep relationships with your clients and to really see the impact of your work, your leadership and to just really deeply connect to that feeling of being of service, which is what happened for her. And I think what really changed her life really.

Paul Povolni (01:02:12.046)
Yeah. And finding your people, like finding people that have similar interests and similar goals and similar passions. That's amazing. So for somebody that is the old version of Desi, what would you tell them? What would you encourage them with on their journey with what you've experienced and what you've learned along the way?

Des Dobreva (01:02:32.91)
as in in general.

Paul Povolni (01:02:34.606)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (01:02:36.974)
Not all attention is good attention. That's number one. And there will be, I think I wish I could tell myself from seven years ago that nothing else really is important to when you're building or growing a business or nothing is more important than being of service. And the moment you lose your connection with that, the moment you lose your sense of that,

Paul Povolni (01:02:40.686)
Yeah.

Des Dobreva (01:03:02.926)
and you focus on things like revenue goals and you focus on things like scaling and Facebook ads and all of these things, you will just feel so deeply disconnected, which is what happened to me a few years ago when I listened to all of the advice about those scale this way and scale that way and throw this much money at this. It just, it didn't work for me because I felt so deeply disconnected from the very reason I started doing this in the first place, which is to help people.

and to help people become more confident in who they are, which is such a huge part of branding in the first place. So just remember who the hell you are. Remember why you were put on this earth. Remember the impact that you're here to create and everything else matters less.

Paul Povolni (01:03:49.23)
That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Des. This has been a wonderful conversation. So glad we finally connected. And, you know, I think you've shared a lot of great, great ideas around branding, around memberships. And I think people are really going to be impacted by it. And I think it's going to help somebody in looking at where they're at with their business and where they're at with their life. And so proud of you and all that you're doing. Carry on. And thank you so much for being on.

Des Dobreva (01:04:18.126)
Thank you for having me. This was amazing.

Paul Povolni (01:04:21.006)
Thank you, take care.

Des Dobreva (01:04:24.59)
Bye.